Pastors’ Seminar, part 3

Transcript (edited for readability).

All right. Okay, so, any good dialogue and questions? Guys are coming up with a number of questions. Any that you'd like to ask right away here? Otherwise, we'll jump back into the outline here under C2.

Yeah, Quentin. You mentioned multiple times the perversion of our culture and how it's impacted the language, and we were talking about that as well — just the language, not only within the part of the tree we talk about, but just like with the Lord's Supper and stuff that has been used. How do we go about speaking about these things positively, in a way that doesn't lose the people whose minds are addled with all that other stuff, just firing off in all these perverse directions?

Yeah, so a great question. I can give you how I worked on that in my last congregation, which is I began with these parent partnership workshops — I'll talk more on that tomorrow, but they are in your other packets for tomorrow, my session tomorrow — where we began conversations with parents on beginning sexuality, initially. Then it became, I began teaching in Bible class, where I began developing a rapport with people and understanding and digging deeper — how are, what's the language being used? And so that was, of course, when you have Bible study on sex — that was one of the largest Bible studies we'd ever had; that whole series is about a twelve-week series. So then when I started talking about it as appropriate — we're on the lectionary, so we simply did it, and oftentimes the lectionary is very providential in how it works — then I could utilize that language in there, but I would be intentional about reclaiming family and sexual virtue, reclaiming our language. So part of that was even then helping parents to understand the language of vice and virtue, asking folks to name what was a vice — that's, you know, an archaic sort of way of thinking for many people — and then contrasting that with the fruits of the Spirit versus the works of the flesh. So began introducing it, layering it more, just like you would when they ask, how do you talk to your children about sexuality? What age do you start? Right where they're at — you talk about age-appropriate language, words that they can understand, and layer it. You're not ashamed of it, but you're not talking about it every turn either. So, if that answers it — it's kind of a layered, intentional approach.

Yep. Any others?

Yeah. Well, you know, my daughter — one of her years, she married — so what I said… What?

Again, I'll go with: it depends. Because what has been the state of the relationship — that's a difficult one. If it's one where he or she is trying to throw it in their face, then it's — what will you gain by attending, if you're hoping to hold to your confession and Christian faith? If it's one where the parent is desperate to try and maintain a relationship, hoping for repentance in the future, and not wanting to cut off that relationship — I sympathize with the parent and the great hurt and angst. I just had this literal conversation with a pastor and his wife on that very situation, and they were split on how it should be handled. She was wanting to maintain the relationship; she didn't want him ever broken and cut off, because she's every day praying for repentance. He was more firmly saying, "I cannot be present or support this." So it is a difficult and very heartbreaking situation. So that's kind of, again, it depends where they're at.

Others? Okay. All right, we'll keep pressing on then, recognizing the matters of the body — matters of the body, C2. There are considerations on the body and culture today. It's more than just sexuality, of course. We've got our medical and health considerations. How is the body treated by the medical community and the health industry? Right now — huge conversation in our culture — about how the body, what should we put in it, with COVID going on and the whole vaccination conversation. Likewise, though, diet pills — how there are books written on all kinds of diets, body-altering procedures. And this isn't just simply the transgender body dismemberment, if you will, or mutilation. It's also — there's a whole subculture — if you've seen how they split the tongues to look like a lizard, they put the bumps in their head, the tattooing — a whole nature of how they view the body, what's just going on.

So mindful of those considerations on the body — certainly sexual. Again, it's mindful of how the orgasm of your choice is now effectively added to the Bill of Rights. Again, looking at that — mentally, how we think about our body has become disordered. Again, same-sex marriage, gender dysphoria, and eating disorders. If you've ever had parishioners — I've had two over my time, and I'm dealing with one, a pastor's wife, right now. I am not a psychologist, so I don't try to counsel her from the nature of the psychological reasoning for eating disorders. I give her spiritual care and help, and dovetail with the cognitive reframing that is going on, but there is all kinds of body dysmorphia, as well as eating disorders, in this particular, most recent case I'm dealing with. She does not feel comfortable in her body, particularly when it feels a certain way in clothes, or, of course, when she gets a certain number on the scale — irrational, dealing with the body.

Emotional — how we feel determines how we treat our own body and the body of others, and even dictates public policy, as we've already looked at. Spiritual — worship of God involves the body, all the senses, and the remission of sins is delivered to the body by physical signs and seals connected to God's promises. So the tangible nature of the sacraments — water and Word, and bread, wine, body and blood, with the Lord's Word.

So the body was specifically designed with one-flesh union in view. All right? We've looked at this already, recognizing that. And so I want you to ponder this for a moment with that recognition — how the body was created with one-flesh union in view. If the union of the sexes in marital conjugal union is the main sign in this world of our call to union with God — again, we're looking at considerations of the body, what does it say about God? So if the union of the sexes in marital conjugal union is the main sign in this world of our call to union with God, and if there is an enemy who wants to separate us from God, where do you think he's going to aim his most potent arrows? At that which is the sign of our union with God. He wants to disorder that conjugal, marital, one-flesh union.

And so it's mindful of that — why the family and the sexual union is at the center of Scripture. A wedding at the beginning and at the end, and as it's played out, the family is at the core of it — where Jesus was born of a mother, certainly of a virgin, but nonetheless within a family. The attacks on the family — we should not be surprised why the evil one is so violently going after to disorder what God has ordered.

So our sexual identity, then, is not a social construct, but it's rooted in creation by design. And so this is, again, where we don't want to engage and let culture set the terms of our engagement. We go by what God has created. So even for heterosexual — when we talk about orientation, we're letting them set the terms of engagement. So we deal with just being a male or female that God has created, and we engage certainly in acts — some of them that would be, if you're married, sexual, or if you're not, that are immoral — but we are creatures of God.

So our sexually explicit culture has objectified the body and torn sex apart from marriage and procreation, essentially also jettisoning the person. So men are simply looking at females as body parts, assemblages of body parts for them to ogle, or in their mind imagine what sex would be like with them. So when pleasure and gratification is the main goal of sex, people become the means and babies become the obstacles. And so we take our pleasure and kill our offspring.

Likewise, then, living chastely — chaste doesn't mean simply abstinence. Living chastely as a male or female is the vocation of every Christian, whether single or married. Chastely means faithful within the marriage union. And if you are single, then it would mean abstinence, but faithful to the Lord in your vocation as a male or female in that singleness.

Luther offers us some perspective on husbands and wives here as well: "When a husband looks at his wife as if she were the only woman on earth, and when the woman looks at her husband as if he were the only man on earth — yes, if no king or queen, not even the sun itself sparkles more brightly and lights up your eyes more than your husband or wife — then right there you are face to face with God speaking. God actually gives your spouse to you, saying, 'The man shall be yours, the woman shall be yours.' I am pleased beyond measure. Creatures heavenly and earthly are jumping for joy."

So Satan despises marriage and the one-flesh union, and he does so because it mirrors the love of the triune God, and he has been cut off from it, while all other celestial beings are in awe of it. And therefore he hates it, and therefore attacks it so viciously.

C. S. Lewis, in Mere Christianity, talks of it like this: "The old Christian teachers said that if man had never fallen, sexual pleasure, instead of being less than it is now, would actually have been greater. I know that some muddle-headed Christians have talked as if Christianity thought that sex, or the body, or pleasure were bad in themselves, but they're wrong. Christianity is almost the only one of the great religions that thoroughly approves of the body, which believes that matter is good, that God Himself once took on a human body, that some kind of body is going to be given us even in heaven, and is going to be an essential part of our happiness, our beauty, and our energy."

So again, talking of the resurrection — Paul gives us an understanding of what it is to have the resurrected body, a seed, when he talks in 1 Corinthians 15 of being raised. But we will have our full members in the resurrection, and we will be more fulfilled than we could possibly imagine. And that would include — if you would, again, it's difficult for us to understand it in our perverse culture — sexually fulfilled. Even though it's not that as if there's some perverse gathering going on up in heaven, but it's the recognition of the fulfillment — even as Jesus Himself has fully male appendages in His resurrected state, so will male and female at the resurrection. And the joy that is there, though "no giving in marriage," will be fully and wonderfully present. And we will know our spouses, the spouse that we had, and yet, as we know others as well, and our families as brothers, sisters — the joy that will be present is difficult for us to comprehend now.

So Christopher West, in his Theology of the Body for Beginners, says the problem with our sex-saturated culture, then, is not that it overvalues the body and sex. The problem is that it has failed to see just how valuable the body and sex really are. Again, that's the nature of what pornography has done — it's desensitized and only focused on mechanics and genitalia rather than on the fullness of the body and the joy of the one-flesh union.

So the porn industry has wreaked havoc on the body, on marriage and family. And so, multiple challenges — we'll talk more tomorrow — but the porn industry is a hundred-billion-dollar industry worldwide. And if you caught this past week, I think one of the big announcements on the porn sites, if you will, was — what is it called — OnlyFans, where they reinstituted that subscriptions can be made, and pornographic content from individual providers, meaning those contractors, individual contractors themselves, can continue with that. And what caused the turnaround? Of course, money. It's a very lucrative business.

Then the transgender movement impacts everything from parenting to education to politics and policy. So for us, we have to look at how do we compassionately and yet truthfully respond. And so tomorrow, again, it will be a demonstration of when we're dealing with others who are non-Christians, how do we engage and use good reason and logic and rhetoric, even pointing out the result of a policy, if it's a public policy. When we're talking with other Christians, we use the authoritative nature of God's Word and hold to that truth.

So — first article. All right, second article — and I'm realizing the time, we're going to have to move quickly to get the other two articles in here.

Second article: "And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord." What does this mean, again, for the body? This is the crux, the incarnation. So our belief that Jesus Christ, true God, begotten from the Father from eternity, and also true man, is born of the Virgin Mary, who is my Lord. He has suffered in body. He has bled and died on the cross. So He has experienced it, and then He is the firstborn from the dead, and lives and reigns to all eternity.

So the incarnation of Christ is the profound and powerful mystery that makes human flesh the hinge of salvation. Here I have a quotation from St. Athanasius — I was looking at an alternate — where he says: "He took to Himself a body, a human body, even as our own; nor did He will merely to become embodied, or merely to appear as such — had that been so, He could have revealed His divine majesty in some other and better way. No, He took our body." Intentionally so.

So the incarnation, then — what does it say, if this is a question you might want to ponder, what does it say about motherhood and manhood, or female — where Mary had the Son of God in her body, and the nature of Jesus taking on human flesh? So the Psalmist says, "How lovely is Your dwelling place, Lord God Almighty." So the baptized — the baptismal identity is the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit.

All right, so Martin Chemnitz gives a lot of very profound considerations for us in his magnificent work, The Two Natures of Christ. Quickly I'll read through them, with a few observations for us. The Son of God is the image of the invisible God, to be sure. Man in the beginning was created in the image of God, but in Adam we lost this, as Irenaeus says. Therefore, when God had determined to rescue the human race and to restore it to His image, He wished that person to be made incarnate who is the very image of His substance. In other words, the lengths the heavenly Father went to, to redeem, to restore, and to raise humanity through the body — again, affirms how the body is assigned the mystery hidden from eternity in God. In other words, the body makes the invisible visible in the incarnation, in Christ.

Second, Chemnitz says: of such importance is it to recognize rightly the human nature in Christ, for in the flesh of Christ God condemns sin, and in the body of His flesh we are reconciled — in the body of His flesh we are reconciled, we are justified in His blood. He laid down His life as a ransom for many. The Son of God is born of a woman, in order that we who were under the law might be redeemed and receive the adoption. Again, we are so familiar with this in many respects — we often talk about what we lose; sometimes I think we lose the wonder, the mystery, and the majesty of what is going on in the incarnation, and in Christ's body for our redemption.

So here, again, is the importance of recognizing even the many walking wounded that we'll have coming into our congregations or in our communities — who have been sexually, physically abused, and who have abused their own bodies, who have despised their bodies, or whose bodies have been despised, maybe mutilated. The incarnation of Christ, and that God would become incarnate, speaks then to them regarding the value and the preciousness of them and their body, and the redemption of their body.

Finally, number three: therefore the Son of God took on our entire human nature, with all the conditions or properties which are proper to and characteristic of our nature, in order that we might have a sure pledge of the restoration of our entire corrupt nature, whose cure He, as our physician, undertook, having given definite proof when He, in Himself as the head, first reformed, and as it were refashioned it in its entirety. Moreover, the statement of Gregory Nazianzen is most significant — a statement which all antiquity accepted — namely, that part of human nature which was not assumed by Christ was not healed. In other words, He redeems the whole of you, body and soul and all, or not at all. Powerful statement here.

With this, then, we see, as Christ becomes incarnate, the family is the backdrop of redemption history. So we can track that, of course, certainly as the genealogies do in the Gospels, tracing it very importantly all the way back up to Christ. But the family is the backdrop of history, and it's a reminder, too, that the family is the fabric of society. Mary Eberstadt, in her book How the West Really Lost God, tracks this — as the family goes, in terms of how a culture views family, so goes the church. And so, recognizing there's a DNA, a double helix, she says, between the family and viewing it within a culture, and how the church goes within that culture as well. All right, I'll talk more on that probably tomorrow, a little bit too.

For, still in Christ, his physical suffering here, His shed blood and death — Christ attains remission of sins and healing for sins of the body. Again, those are both committed, as well as those that have been received, or those committed against others. So here, I think I've already unpacked the nature of moral infraction versus spiritual contamination of the body. But here I think it's mindful and helpful for us, particularly as you may deal with others who have sins of the body — all sins are equally condemning before God. They are all equally condemning, but not all sins are equally defiling. Sins of the body are so severe because they defile the body, which is a temple of the Holy Spirit, and why they are more desecrating, more intense, and more severe in terms of the nature of how it can thwart one's faith, and the affliction one would endure.

So suffering, then, also in body and soul — that's the reality of this side of eternity, of the curse — we suffer physically in body. Suffering is not fun, but our Lord is one who has suffered, and as difficult as it is to suffer, suffering brings us closer to our Lord through the shared pain of suffering. But here's the thing — Jesus came in body, and He sanctified such suffering ahead of us with His own body. So Paul says to the Corinthians: "We are always carrying in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies."

And suffering, again, is significant — I just had this conversation with my kids the other day, talking about the challenge of suffering, because they're seeing their mom going through a lot right now, because she's so sick. They've seen their dad as well — ten knee surgeries, forearm surgeries, chronic Lyme disease, a significant number of challenges — but they talk about suffering. What value is there in suffering? That's the great question, right — what value is there in suffering? But of course, suffering also helps us understand the fullness of life, and without it, of course, we know not the depths and the riches of life either. And so our Lord, though, in the midst of suffering — and it can be miserable, physical suffering, and we've got many in this world physically suffering — but our Lord has been there ahead of us, and draws us closer to Him when we suffer, through the most intimate of ways, in shared pain. And He's the one who leads us through it, because we've been united to Him baptismally, through the water and the Word, united to Christ and His death, and therefore He's the one who will bring us through it, because we're united to Him in His resurrection.

All right, already talked about the theology of the body that lies at the core of evangelism today. So we want to make sure we're confessing the Word made flesh to a secular world. Again, the Christian response to both materialism and spiritualism is the incarnation. So we recognize the goodness of the body, of matter, but also we guard against its excesses, and we recognize it and balance it between Gnostic trends and the materialistic trends of our culture.

The incarnation brings hope to a sexually defiled and confused generation. So, in other words, the battle for humankind's soul right now is being fought over the truth of his body. Does it matter? Look at all the fronts. And in fact, a great book on this — if you want to look at that, captures all the fronts — is Nancy Pearcey's Love Thy Body. If you haven't read it, it's a great one, because it explores not just the sexual nature of the body, transgenderism as well, but abortion, euthanasia, and how baby parts are being sold — the body and the personhood theory, if you will, that is now the gnostic view of it — that there's a divide, a fact-value divide that goes on. The facts are what are commonly, supposedly agreed upon here, but what is valued is up here, and that can change. And so that's why we can have a Supreme Court ruling that creates, out of thin air, this idea that it's not a person — the sentient-being idea, meaning it's not a real person until it becomes aware of itself. And so now we've got ethicists who are even saying post-birth abortions, because they're not aware, it shouldn't matter — yes, it's a human piece of material, but it's not a person, and since it's not a person, therefore it doesn't matter, and it's not morally wrong to get rid of that person.

And so therefore, whether that's post-birth, or whether it's an aged person who doesn't have awareness — there are those that believe it's morally acceptable to rid society of such burdens upon us. We can see it in different European cultures as well. Now it's moving from not just physical awareness, but emotional — if emotional trauma is too great. Now, I think in Denmark, laws are being considered that you can euthanize youth who have experienced too much emotional trauma, that life isn't worth living, and therefore it would be legally acceptable to euthanize them. And so the absurdity, of course, grows. But to speak truth in the face of that, of course, it's the incarnation. Our Lord Jesus Christ came into the flesh. He knows this life, and He's redeemed us through it.

Third article perspectives: "I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Christian Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting." Again, what does this mean for the body? Here is where pastoral care is played out in the realm of sanctification, and the explanation to the third article of the Creed guides you in your care of souls — who, again, the care of souls is the care of embodied souls.

"I believe that I cannot, by my own reason or strength, believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him, but the Holy Spirit has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith. In the same way He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith. In this Christian Church He daily and richly forgives all my sins and the sins of all believers. On the Last Day He will raise me and all the dead, and give eternal life to me and all believers in Christ. This is most certainly true."

So it's the Holy Spirit, then, that delivers and enacts faith, as well as the resurrection of the body. And we've talked about this already at funerals, but the nature of your pastoral care, certainly recognizing the body and the resurrection that will occur — but when you give pastoral care, what are you doing with your body, and that of the person who is either in your study or in the sanctuary? We can bless tactilely — blessing with hands on head, asking their permission. Simply, this is how I conclude with almost all of my parishioners when I meet with them: I say, I've got a psalm in mind, I'd like to pray this psalm with you, pray the petitions of the requests you've brought up, and then I'm going to bless you — hands on head, blessing them, making the sign of the cross — tactile, blessing them. What are you doing with your body? Listen, of course, with your body as well — their bodies, particularly if it's one that's been defiled — how are they viewing their bodies, and be mindful of that. You give care to the whole person, body and soul.

Likewise, baptism and the Lord's Supper sanctify, or make holy, our bodies for life and service in His kingdom, both here in time and there in eternity. Here, then, worship in spirit and truth includes our bodies. Have you given consideration to how your bodies are involved in worship and the Divine Service? We're not mere spectators — we are engaged in that. Bodily position helps focus what's occurring in the Divine Service.

So one example, of course — with Autumn, she wasn't used to this. She was — you guys stand up, sit down, stand up, sit down all the time in this service, I'm not used to that. And when I talked about the nature of, and she was very attentive to this, when we talked about the body and how it's involved — in particular, as she viewed her own body as defiled, as stained, as tainted — why would God want to bother, not only forgiving her guilt, but of all those things that she had done, to see her as acceptable or pleasing? And so it was one of the things that we talked about often, because she was still — again, a complex situation — she was still with the man who was the father of the baby, and she began to recognize, coming back, returning to faith, but also knew that a life of repentance then wouldn't mean still being with him. And she was just blunt — she said, "I still like having sex, so I'm not going to stop at this point." I said, well, then we've got to talk about that, because what does that mean as we're wrestling through that? And so it was hard conversations for her to have, working through, but then coming to understand that.

So once she finally came to the point of wanting to be confirmed, then to receive the Lord's Supper, she desired it and longed for it, but her world and life had been so intertwined with depravity that she had a difficult time allowing herself to even be willing to receive the Lord's Supper — especially as she would say, "Well, I know I'm still staying in sin," but needing him present — meaning her now-husband — because of help with the child who needed twenty-four-hour care. And so we walked through the nature of marriage — they got married — marriage never solves a sin problem; marriage solves a relationship problem. Confession and absolution solves a sin problem. And so then we went through confession and absolution, and the nature of being able to confidently have that, going through catechesis, to the point where she was then willing to receive the Lord's Supper. So it's important — how the body is considered, and how you are attentive to that.

All right. Pastoral care with a robust theology of the body — so, listening with your whole body, the oral enactment of the Word of God, so using your mouth, that's part of your body, prayer and blessing over and upon the body, so ritual, and recognizing that.

Likewise, then, preaching and teaching this in the parish — again, that is a great question that we had before: how do we engage that in ways that would be heard and understood by those in the congregation? I've had one instance where I had a pastor who was very zealous for doing this, but was so insistent and so kind of in-your-face about it that the elders were no longer comfortable. They had asked him to try to tone things down. And so then finally he came to me, and we had to have conversations, because he was so zealous but not tactful. So you want to be mindful of that, so you don't ruin your opportunity to catechize in your zeal, to try to make sure you're creating boundaries, or helping people create boundaries in their life, on the sexual realities of our culture.

So that means intentional planning. Know your nomenclature, meaning the cultural trends, but also know your audience — what will they be willing and able to receive, how will they receive it? And if you go too fast and get the elders coming to your office, as I said, it happened once with me — will you be able to say, "Thank you for sharing, I'm sorry, I was moving too fast, please forgive me, I'm going to do better — can we talk about how that can best be done"? And so being mindful of that as you are moving forward.

So that includes some careful congregational collaboration. So words, descriptions used — again, make people uncomfortable, so start small. Begin working outward, larger from there, with those small groups, with your elders or council, or youth, or if you've got a school, with your teachers, with some parents, and getting others on board as well. Those parent partnership workshops were simply fifty-five-minute conversations that I had framed out around a particular issue that we may have had — talking about how do we talk about modesty, or how do we talk about sexuality. And we've got parents who have just preschoolers, as well as those that have eighth graders on up to high schoolers. And they'd say, well, what if I never talked about it — how do I start, where do I start? So we'd talk through that. Then we'd give time for the families to have conversations with one another, because it's where oftentimes we found — in those conversations, they'd work things out and could share with others, to know that they're not alone in this. That is important, to have those conversations with each other.

And so we began implementing them. In our case, we worked it with the school, where we could incentivize it — meaning if our parents would commit to going to our parent partnership workshops, typically three to four a year, they'd get so much off their registration for school. And we had a core one that we would do about the partnership of the congregation and school with the parents regarding the education of their children, and that we never wanted to take the place of the parents in the faith-formation lives of those children — but then we'd usually have two, maybe three others throughout the year, one a quarter maybe, on particular topics. And if they would go, we could incentivize it twenty-five or fifty off registration for school, and then have conversations, and then get great advocates for us as well within the school. So that was the intentionality that we would have, as one avenue of being able to implement that in your congregation.

Now, as for you and your pastoral life in this — again, it's looking at, you have to know your congregation. You have to know what they're going to be comfortable with hearing from the pulpit, in Bible class. I'd recommend, if you are becoming passionate about this and want to have it start, start with Bible class, or start with a small group, maybe with your elders, and say, "How would you receive something if we did a Bible class like this?" And then begin working out from there, but being intentional about it. And now — just try and don't do a "well, I said it in a sermon once three years ago and think that's enough." We have to be intentional about routinely, regularly making this mindful throughout the life — the baptismal life — of our congregations. All right.

Questions? Any of the foregoing today. Yes.

The studies that you mentioned — I am curious, is the current status of those cases what you would characterize as favorable or successful? Have you had any absolutely unsuccessful, unfavorable outcomes with both under your care in this respect?

The two case studies are ongoing. I'm no longer at that congregation, but I know the pastors who are, and they happen to be here today, so we've actually conversed a little bit on those situations. Well, both are ongoing, and one might be more favorable than the other. In Autumn's case, again, it's an open conversation — she's given me permission, because, again, having been married to a pastor, and one that did not know the gospel, and it became so abusive, she wants others who have been involved in this type of abuse to be aware of it. So her journey continues. So again, she plays organ or piano for the church, but still has plenty of questions, still deals with John — whose birthday was just had, so my wife and I weren't able to attend, just had his birthday party celebration — but he continues on needing twenty-four-hour care. And so still asks good questions along the way. The other situation, it's still ongoing, still not necessarily a favorable outcome, but still there's a connection still able to be made.

In terms of the other question — yes, certainly had other ones where you do the best you can, you can be as loving as you can, but it's where Romans 1 and 2 kind of comes in, where the depravity of one's heart — the Lord has turned them over to it, and they are in no way wanting to be receptive to it, to the Lord's Word, no matter how savvy, gentle, compassionate you may have been. It was either all or nothing. And so, unfortunately, that does happen.

Yeah. So what type of relapse are you seeing?

What do you mean by that? Say more.

Well, the individual…

Chase very wide — so are you saying, what type of behavior am I seeing, or…

I guess, what type of failure — or success? Are you seeing individuals who, like, homosexuality, who will never see that, but then, as it does, revert?

Oh — recidivism, coming back to it. Certainly that occurs, but that's where I would go back to the baptismal life. So in terms of have I seen that — yes, certainly see that, and that's all of us — like a dog returns to its vomit, so we return to our sin regularly. And that's why — "the thing I want to do, I don't do; the thing I don't want to do, I do." That's the fallen human nature. But trying to work through that with them — if there's a willingness to recognize their baptismal identity and daily contrition and repentance, then the fruits of that carry on. So probably one of the most regular aspects, in terms of sexual things that I see more frequently, is pornography use — in terms of, "all right, I'm really doing good," but all of a sudden life gets rough, and now I go back to use of it again. And so working on that, and giving care, needing regular ordinary care through the Divine Service, and extraordinary care outside of that, and personal pastoral care.

Yeah, I was really impressed — Chris left, by just the popularization of John Paul II's theology of the body — or going to seminary, in some ways I continue to be into it — but I am curious, having done the homework on it, do you see points where there would be a little difference between the theology of the body versus — is this more of a natural-law approach, and do we have broad agreement?

I think we have broad agreement. I think there would be certain — I'd have to piece through a little bit. Christopher West is prolific in what he's written; I remain thoroughly impressed by him, I would certainly recommend him. So if you're looking for treatments on theology of the body, digest what you can from Christopher West, but then also Kleinig's book that just came out — so, what he calls it, a rhapsody on the theology of the body — let's see, yeah, it's for sale tomorrow. So it's just a wonderful, distinctly Lutheran perspective just coming out — Rhapsody on the Theology of the Body — wonderfully made, a Protestant theology of the body. It's in contrast to Christopher West because it gives a comprehensive approach toward it, but it's wonderfully meditative and reflective, and thoroughly Lutheran.

So, Christopher West — and there's a whole, if you aren't aware, he has the Theology of the Body Institute, you can go and be trained in terms of the theology of the body, and where we agree, because it's natural law, an understanding of Scripture, and a Christ-centered approach — if you're interested in that. For a while I was reading everything I could from him, then Kleinig's. But then also Love Thy Body from Nancy Pearcey — that's this one. And then also, I'm just getting into now — there's an Eastern Orthodox theologian on theology of the body as well, John — I think I brought it, because I just started it — Jean-Claude Larchet. So he also has a great book. I'm also beginning to digest his theology of illness — some very insightful things, but an Eastern Orthodox perspective. But you have to be mindful of those. But in terms of your original question, I have found great enthusiasm and continued learning when I have read Christopher West, but his approach to holiness is where we differ a little bit — just like vice and virtue, we're going to differ a little bit where Catholics approach it differently than Lutherans do, on what is received by faith versus habituation and practice. So we will differ a little bit in those ways. But by and large, on the theology of the body, it gives some wonderful things for us to learn and contemplate.

The others. All right.