Dr. Beverly Yahnke — GPS Essentials for Travel through Demanding Conversations

Transcript (edited for readability).

For those of you who enjoyed Pastor Worm's presentation, as I surely did, you'll notice that he provides the foundation upon which this presentation rests. The primary assumption upon which his presentation, as well as mine, rests is this: the individuals who are struggling — whether it be a mom, a dad, a child, a teen — first, foremost, constantly, we look at them through the lens of this person for whom Christ died.

You're going to hear me probably reinforcing a number of the things that Pastor Worm suggested. What I am bringing to you will be really twofold in emphasis. First, taking a look at what are some of the real communication gaps that I have learned of, as parents I have chatted with, or administrators I have chatted with, or pastors I have chatted with. We're going to look at some of the pitfalls and how you might reasonably avoid them in terms of connecting with individuals. And then we're going to move on to what are some of the things that have to be said when you're talking with the school principal. What are some of the things that have to be said if you're talking with a doctor? And parents particularly can feel some sense of greater uncertainty. So that's where we're going to look this morning.

Why on earth would a conference on Christian sexuality be concerned with the fine art of courageous conversations? Doxology's very first conference on Christian sexuality was held at St. Louis University way back in 2015, when we already began to identify that there's a real cutting-edge and important cultural issue. That 2015 conference became known as "the sex conference," which is great for registration. For the record, the title of the conference was "Finding Our Voice." And so you notice the familiar theme — finding our voice, courageous conversations. Our emphasis remains the same: knowledgeable, baptized, loving Christians need to be willing — as you saw, I loved this, Pastor Worm did this — you have to step out. You have to take some risks. You have to be confident that God will be present to bless richly and abundantly your efforts to serve his children.

So at Doxology, we've come to believe that the more individuals who are equipped and who are really willing to step out like that, and to speak the truth to a confused and toxic culture, the better. For decades now, what the culture used to regard as really appropriate sexual and social behavior is no longer a guide that we Christians can use. And so we're interested in: what can we say, and what can we do? Recognizing that there are an awful lot of deterrents to speaking candidly and clearly. So we'll take that on.

We don't ordinarily think about our conversations with other people as being courageous. That's not a word we assign to our interactions most of the time. We enjoy conversations with all kinds of people, and we don't put them through an identity check or a scanner of any sort. We just engage with a desire to get to know somebody, based on goodwill. And our expectation is usually that reasonable people, like-minded people, can speak candidly with each other. And we've come to believe as Christians that as long as we're called to speak the truth in love, we ought to do so. And by God's grace, we may even have a fair hearing, and we're likely to be effective in influencing — by the grace of God. It is God's own Holy Spirit that allows all good things to happen in terms of relationships and growth and faith, so we certainly aren't going to take responsibility for that.

But the truth is, conversation about transgender kids or LGBTQ marriage with people who don't share our worldview or faith perspective can be an absolute minefield. And I think that's why so many people feel a great sense of caution about such things. It's a minefield whether we are pastors, or teachers, or counselors, or deaconesses, or moms or dads or anybody — there is an initial inhibition that's there, and we detect it with great regularity. And conversations with those who don't agree with us, who have very different beliefs, often leave us feeling challenged, or frustrated, or even guilty. I could have said, I should have said, I ought to have said — what if this person never has another opportunity to speak with a Christian? And so now it's even become a matter of conscience for us. Thanks be to God, in the Divine Service tomorrow we'll have the opportunity to come to our Lord's table. We receive the forgiveness of sins for those things we cannot control, that we've done, and for which we may have issues of conscience, and we are forgiven with a repentant spirit.

At this conference you've heard a number of very fine presentations about all kinds of related issues, and I've seen many of you jotting notes and madly taking little scribbles in the margins of some outlines. We're going to look at the anatomy of difficult conversations for our last presentation today. And by that I mean those conversations which allow us to walk right up to the brink of being able to say or do something meaningful, and then the small prayer equipping us to take a step over the dotted line and to do that. Essentially, we'll be answering the question: now that I've had a chance to learn about all kinds of things and think about all kinds of things, how do I choose to use it? How do I choose to share? It is good, right, and salutary that you've learned and thought about many things. Use it, share it, multiply it, influence others by God's grace.

When I look up "difficult conversations" on Google — this is great — I found 5,990,000 hits in a fraction of a second for "difficult conversations." So I'm thinking this is a cutting-edge issue, with 6,000 books immediately available. So if you have nothing to do during Advent after worship, there are 6,000 books waiting for you. I'll try to give you a quick summary of some of the highlights, talking with you about how conversations can encourage, support, sustain, and equip, and build and sustain relationships — or conversations can divide, and divide permanently. Conversations can estrange. They can cause wreckage. And we're aware of that, and I believe that's the reason we're reluctant to take the risk. We don't want to cause wreckage. We don't want to cause estrangement. We don't want to hurt anybody. And we're not confident about what to say or how to say it, and so we choose to say nothing. Right?

Courageous conversations don't only occur in public settings. Most often, I've come to believe, they occur right within the family, often around the dinner table, between parents and children. Also between pastors and parishioners, among administrators, among teachers, legislators, school boards, and parents, doctors and counselors as well — there is no shortage of conversations to be held, I assure you. You're not going to be the least bit surprised when I tell you conversations of this nature are often almost electrically charged — emotionally charged, carrying all kinds of other baggage: baggage of political agendas, or baggage perhaps of tangled family relationships, or tangles of personal history and misinformation. There's nothing easy about it. And then there's the inflexible and intolerant group that won't even permit you to talk with them — those who will choose to avoid you, those who will choose to be estranged from you and to hold you at arm's length, saying, "You're God, your problems, right? My God, I'm cool." Well, no, not actually.

So we'll look at some opportunities that might emerge for you in the weeks and months ahead, in terms of talking with individuals who might be on your heart. We'll begin with a helpful insight that covers all conversations, whether or not they have anything to do with Christian sexuality. And that's the fact that since COVID — post-COVID — our interactional nature and our interpersonal nature has changed in some significant ways. Peggy Noonan is an essayist for the Wall Street Journal, and she made the observation: 39% of people in America are angry. We don't need a reason — they're just angry. And we are. We're more irritable, we're more impatient, we're less tolerant, we're cranky. People are in a mood. It's as if people have their motor running before anything's happened. And that's a part of COVID. Many people have told us the interpersonal nature of conversations starts out with things being more difficult than they have been in the past. And we recognize that since COVID, rates of depression have increased three to fourfold. Rates of anxiety have increased fourfold. They were already plenty high before COVID. So we have an anxious, depressed, and cranky group of people. What could be better?

Ultimately, everything about connecting with another person is probably more difficult now than it has been in the past. And so we need to be prepared at the outset for a chilly reception by some people. We can't expect to be welcomed with open arms, particularly when we are dealing with differing worldviews, different religions, different habits and practices. Some may go so far as to learn of your position and make allegations against you, or actively contradict you, or threaten you, or endeavor to demean you or to shut you down, or to shut you up. Again, we wonder why we're reluctant to take risks. The reality of cancel culture is very sobering indeed. Others might use their office to shut you down. Others might use their authority to quiet you, implying that you are a very real threat to the well-being of children, for example. And that's hard to hear. Or they may just dismiss you as some sort of religious freak, some kind of lunatic, somebody who is not well-grounded in the realities of life.

I remember the occasion of Doxology visiting Australia — I think that was our first trip down there, in 2015 or 2016 — and we convened a conference of Australians, who speak their minds very clearly. A man came up after a presentation I made and he said, "You are a complete boofhead." I said, "I'm inferring that's a bad thing." All right. So you can expect not to be well received by some. All right? That's okay, because it's not about me. Right? It's not about me. And the instant it becomes about us, we get our egos tangled, and things don't end well.

Others, for example, might meet with you in the context of a different setting, or you might become acquainted with them. I would suspect that most of you have had an opportunity over the past year to see a YouTube video of one sort or another where there's a school board meeting — my heavens, parents, and teachers, and principals, and school counselors and administrators recorded screaming at each other, while some poor helpless soul in the back is trying to gavel things into order, saying, "People, people," while they're screaming at each other. That's the environment that informs us and makes us a little bit wary, and perhaps reasonably so. And those meetings are becoming increasingly common. So there's often shouting, and the ill will is often shocking, and it doesn't go away easily.

Let's use the example of pastors — very faithful men who are often at the very point of the spear of difficulties that can start small, and before you know it, they just blow up and take the church with them. Often, as I have the occasion to consult with a pastor who might be calling, it's usually some situation causing consternation or anger, resentment, or just feelings of helplessness, and the two most often questions that I hear are: what should I do, and what should I say? They've received wonderful Christian counsel from the circuit visitor or from their district president, but now they're trying to figure out, how do I slay the monster? I know what to say, but how do I do it?

Usually there's been a misunderstanding, unkind words, allegations that may have been cast toward one person or another. The fear, of course, is that if the pastor says anything that angers or frustrates any church member, or upsets a small group of members within the church, you would be astonished how quickly something like that can divide a complete congregation, as some people will move to the aid of the pastor and say the pastor's right, and other people will move to the aid of the dissenting voices. We saw it during COVID a lot, didn't we? We saw that pastors usually had arrows in them from the front and from the back, and they were just talking about diseases. Right? And sadly, their congregations apparently had 500 epidemiologists who were all members. So we've become accustomed to divisions. We've become accustomed to contradicting the authority of our pastor. "Oh yeah, well, I'm highly educated too" — as if that's a response, right?

So the fear, of course, is that division is a terrible thing in the church. Division is a terrible thing in the body of Christ. One pastor called — he mentioned they had a brand-new member join them a couple of months ago. He said, "She's a really bright, articulate parent. She wants to be involved in things that are going on. We're so happy to have her and her children with us." And she shot him an email the other day, and the email said that she was going to be very eager to purchase some new books for the library at the Christian day school. And the pastor said, "Well, I was reading it, and I thought, well, that's great, how lovely, she'd be willing to get some books for our library." Here are the titles: "When Billy Had Two Mommies," "Princess Boy," "Jacob's New Dress," "I Am Not a Girl." The email went on to say, "We realize, of course, that the library is supposed to help children access information about all kinds of things, to invite questions, open discussion, and teaching, and we know children will come across this kind of information outside of school and surely see it online. So it makes sense to be able to provide these age-appropriate resources in the context of the school, where they can ask questions and learn safely." Right? Wrong answer. Completely wrong answer.

So why should that email have caused this dear pastor to break out in a sweat? It's a simple library issue, actually. The school's library committee had been reviewing books for years. Why the upheaval? Well, the parent was doing an end-run. She'd gotten a no from the library committee and thought, well, we'll just get the pastor on board and he'll say that's wonderful — and that wasn't healthy at all, right? And what I've learned is that pastors — and most of us — hate divisions, and we'll do what we can to preserve unity in any way that might be valuable.

Why are there so many divisions, even within the context of our own church? Well, it's easy. Pew Research Center says one-third of Christians know and have a relationship with someone who is transgender, which means we have a strong affinity toward someone, or a friendship with someone, or great empathy for someone. Forty percent of Christians say sex is not determined at birth. And 39% of Christians report, on the other side of the coin, that American society has simply gone too far in giving in to LGBT demands. And so all we have is the purchase of four library books, and a pastor sweating blood — what do I say, what do I do? He's a very conscientious, very faithful man who found himself in a difficult position. So in our churches, in our schools, we have different groups holding deeply contradictory positions — we are no longer of one mind. That's the takeaway. A takeaway is: presume nothing. Right? And that means we really need to get to know people in our circle, people in our church, and we can presume nothing other than that they recite the creed with us every Sunday morning at the Divine Service.

The pastor didn't want to alienate anyone. He said, "I'm just going to sit on this for a while." Maybe he hoped it would pass. I don't know — I think he was hoping it would resolve itself, that she might just withdraw it and see that it was a difficult circumstance. Maybe she could adopt another cause of one sort or another. And I see that a great deal, not only among pastors, but among teachers and all of us — let's just wait and see, and we kind of use this gesture too, as if we're going to keep the lid on. Let's just see how it plays out. Let's just hope it might go away. And ultimately, when we avoid conversations, what we tend to do is increase and sustain our own personal anxiety. We tend to increase and sustain our own sense of guilt, whether real or imagined, by not dealing with the issue. And we often avoid it, thinking if I say anything or do anything, it will only make things worse. You've had that impression from time to time, right? I'm just going to leave it alone — if I touch this, it'll blow up. Or people say, you know, that parent has the backing of an awful lot of people, so what I'll do is I'll just tell her I'm going to take that under advisement, be prayerful about it, and then get some behind-the-scenes action in place to be sure everything was okay. Get some people to take care of it. Get who? Some people — not me. Somebody else has to handle this. Or there are some people who avoid the situation by saying, this is a complete mess, I do not want to take it on.

I've found in some reading that pastors, and a lot of professional people — teachers and counselors — can be very risk-averse people, right? And so initiating a conversation is the last thing that some people might think of doing, on any topic that's going to be controversial.

Takeaway number one: the most essential component of a courageous conversation is that you need to hold the conversation in a timely way if it comes to you, with some proper preparation that will assist you — and we'll come to that. We know that very often, as the conversation is beginning, each person is aware that the other has a different position, different information about the issue, different interpretations about the issue. We see our world through different filters. And when there's a firm and significant disagreement between you and another, the most basic facts of the situation may not even be a matter of agreement. You need to be prepared for very patient intervention. And we're not patient people, for the most part — tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, we're busy, we want to get things done, chop chop, lickety-split, we're very pressed about such things. We need to wait and be prepared for appropriate interactions over a long period of time. And generally that's not the way we get business done — we want to vanquish the problem, solve it, move on. And I'm going to suggest we need to establish a relationship, build a relationship, be prayerful about the relationship, allow for there to be trust and respect in the relationship. And then we listen. Without that, a courageous conversation rarely ends well.

We tend to misread others' motivations with some regularity, actually, which complicates communication. Often we'll assume we know what their intention was in saying something — like the gentleman who said I was a "boofhead," and I laughed; he was distressed that I laughed, but it was terrific, okay? Sometimes we presume we know why they're saying what they're saying, and that means our guesses have consequences if we guess wrong. Say, for example, in a conversation I start to feel threatened, or I start to feel hurt, and I'm starting to take it personally, and I'm starting to believe they wanted to hurt me, they wanted to threaten me — my heart is likely to harden. Or if, in the midst of a conversation, I become frustrated, I become angry, and I believe they intended to provoke me, my heart can harden. Or if I start to feel maligned, or discredited, or disrespected, and I conclude that was their intention, I may lose complete respect for that person and never trust them any longer, and may see them as an ongoing threat, and may actively even choose to avoid them in the future — and not even a word has been spoken yet, by me.

So be aware that the instant we let ourselves become involved personally, at the level of our ego, the complexity of the conversation mounts quickly, and the conversation becomes less than it could be, because I'm feeling defensive, and I'm starting to worry primarily about me, and my reputation, and my safety, and my well-being. And when that happens, it generally means I'm not going to be focused on being loving — I'm going to be focused on defending myself. So if I'm feeling hurt, or anxious, or threatened, I may very well start getting the adrenaline buzz that we get when we're preparing for battle, right? And you find you're in an emotional place you don't want to be. And if I feel like I'm taking all kinds of emotional hits, I may reflexively start to look for opportunities to slash back at him, belittle him, make him feel angry. Maybe I can score some sort of conversational points, right, if I can put him down with a particularly clever display of sarcasm. And it turns into that, instead of caring for this person for whom Christ died, and we derail very quickly. At that point the conversation is pure wreckage and isn't going to be salvaged. It's personal. And you can be confident no one is going to be putting the best construction on anything once that happens.

We also have to be aware of the fact that sometimes when we talk with an individual different from us, we expect to be rejected. We expect they may not be open to what we might say or offer. We might expect hostility. And we need to realize they may be entirely wrong about us, simply by virtue of their interaction with all kinds of other people — they have expectations, and they may have impressions about our intentions and motivations. They may assume that we are some sort of brainwashed, biblical control freaks who have no desire to know, no desire to understand them, no desire to help them — we simply want to prevail. They may believe we insist upon prevailing because we think we're so morally superior all the time. They may presume we're there to judge them or not. They may presume we're there just to tell them, you're going to hell, as if we can chalk it up on a scoreboard today. Right? Great way to start a relationship, don't you think?

So at the outset, it's important, even before you get to the issues, that you begin in prayer, and you ask for guidance, and you be confident God will provide precisely the words and the language you need when you need them. I've been astonished, in counseling for several decades now — and you are helpers, many of you are helpers, pastors, teachers and the like — and you know what it's like when someone comes in to visit with you and opens the contents of their heart and it spills out before you, and you are simply overwhelmed by the sheer magnitude of the burden that person is carrying, and you realize, how on earth do I respond to this person? And that's done more for my prayer life in the last several decades than anything else, where you become wholly reliant upon the Holy Spirit of God, who does equip you thoroughly, and I will occasionally find myself saying things and think, that was really good — I have no idea where it came from, but it was really good. So be confident you're not doing this as a one-man show, and that you do it in prayer and confidence that God will provide what is required.

And as a very important part of that, if you're dealing with somebody who appears to be an adversary, you've got to be able to look at that person, no matter how horribly they may be speaking or acting toward you, and recognize: that person is not my enemy. Scripture's teaching is pretty clear on that fact, and yet we jump to "enemy lines" pretty quickly — my enemy. It is this person for whom Christ died. And that helps us stay focused, right? That keeps the focus where it needs to be, even if we're not feeling it quite so much.

So we set the scene with patience, a desire to serve, prayer, clarity in our own thinking, and a plan on listening. You heard Pastor Worm talk about the importance of, in the support group, individuals who just — maybe for the first time in months or in years — have the opportunity to talk to another person about what's been troubling them. Not to change them, not to fix them, but just to talk to another person — that is a gift that we give when we listen. And I've come to believe that just about everybody that I've come across is carrying a burden of one sort or another, whether or not it's related to LGBT issues — each of us is carrying a remarkable burden of one sort or another. And all you have to do occasionally is just scratch the surface of someone, and their heart comes tumbling out.

I found that if you just talk with a nice person at the dry-cleaning counter — they say, "How was your day?" — when you say that five days of pickup in a row, on the sixth day you walk in and she says, "Hi, Beth." I didn't know she knew my name. No one in the dry cleaning shop had known my name in 30 years, and suddenly she knows my name — I didn't know hers, and I was embarrassed because I didn't know her name. "How's your day been?" And she wept. And all we'd done was exchange greetings, for six pickups of dry cleaning. It begins with the smallest thing. It begins with a willingness to listen. It begins with the willingness to ask another person, "How's it going?" without an expectation of how the conversation will move ahead. "How's it going?" — and be confident God will be present to bless.

What else? For the really important conversations that are kind of planned, let's look at what is useful. Must the person agree with you within 30 minutes of the conversation's end? No, that's not a good thing to expect. Must they apologize for having a worldview different from yours? No, that's not helpful. Must they repent as a result of talking? No, not in the moment. And if you have those kinds of goals for the conversation, you might want to ratchet those down a little bit and consider what might be more reasonable for you to affect effectiveness. And what are your criteria to determine if you've succeeded in a conversation? I promise you, if you talk with a really committed lesbian woman, she's not going to change her mind after a conversation with you. So begin to think of relationships over time, with grace, okay?

Usually we want to change people — that's one of our objectives. We want them to change, want them to do things differently, want them to see the light. Yeah, that's what you want. But instead of having the goal of changing them, how about the goal of being a faithful witness? How about the goal of giving that person your undivided attention and respect for their willingness to engage in the conversation? How about listening before speaking? How about letting them empty their bucket, without an expectation that they have to meet your needs? They've got a bucket to empty, and if you're there to help them do that, they'll know your name the next time you come by. And the smallest success has established the foundation for the ongoing conversation.

Finally: have you left the conversation saying what you needed to say, in that moment, on that particular day? You won't know that unless you thought about it at the beginning. Can you walk in with an expectation for what's a reasonable takeaway here? What would I like to see happen? What would success look like, before beginning the conversation? Have you considered at least a minimal outcome for your conversation? I would like to be able to walk up to this person next time, greet her with a smile, and have her return it. That is a conversation that is born in good fruit. Has she repented? No. Has she given up her lesbian lover? No. But she's been willing to reach out to this very straight-arrow — how about the straightest arrow, I was like, oh — is she willing to take that chance? Yeah, that's a screaming success, and the relationship grows.

Over time you get to know these people — again, picking up dry cleaning, I learned a couple of weeks ago that this woman's mom died, and I gave her my ticket and she says, "It's bad today, Bob, it's bad." "What's happening?" "My mom" — and she says, "There's no one in the world who's there for me." So I just reached through the counter, and you got a hug, right? Trust, respect, listening. It takes courage to take the risk. It takes courage to wait. It takes patience. Let people love on you, you love on them, and then let God work through you. So you may spend six months building the relationship before anything you want to say gets said. That's okay. Most people don't need a good talking to. Most people need a good listening to — that's been my observation. And nearly everyone — I couldn't impress this upon you more deeply — nearly everyone I'm aware of is desperate for any kind of encouragement, and relationships can be fostered more quickly than you ever imagined.

What else assists with preparation for some significant conversations? Always begin with personal prayer. Why? Because — put on the armor of God, right? And after you've fed the relationship, ask yourself if you have the basis for the beginning of a productive conversation with this other individual. Some people stumble over finding the right terms and the right language — I don't know how to set the scene. It's important that you're comfortable with the language you're going to use, and what it is you're going to share. For a very important conversation, some people just leave their language to chance, although they've been thinking about it, often for weeks or months. Think about NFL coaches — they draw up their team's first fifteen offensive plays before they take the field. Go, Packers — doesn't matter which team, I suppose. I digress. They think it's really important to know where they're going and how they're going to get there. We'd be advised to do probably something just like that. If it's going to be challenging, you might even want to script or outline what it is that needs to be said. You create your playbook, and don't be apologetic about having it. Maybe a couple of clear, crisp statements that you don't want to forget, in language you think is really helpful. This may be your only shot, if it's a really important conversation, and you don't want to inadvertently say something you didn't intend to, and you don't want to skip something you knew was important. So you write down some bullet points — very helpful, very focused.

And if it's really remarkably important — yeah, that sounds like a lot of work, but it's worth it — you might even want to rehearse a strong, confident beginning to the conversation. How do I break the ice? The relationship's been growing, she trusts me now — what do I want to say, and what are the words I want to use? Rehearse it, so you're comfortable with it. Remember speech class in college? Just awful. But when you rehearsed it, it went better, even if it was still awful — it went better, okay?

So if you're hoping to talk to a parent you know reasonably well, encouraging — a child was wanting to transition — your reflex might be to say, "You know, I thought about what you mentioned the other day, that Ella is transitioning, or wants to transition — I'm really kind of shocked, I didn't know what to think or do about it." You're her mother, for heaven's sake, you should know what to think or do about it. No one wants to be told. Nobody wants to be lectured to. Nobody wants to be scolded, or judged — that's not for us to do. Oh, you know, sometimes it's a reflex, but plan what you want to say. So you figure out that you're not posing as an expert — the instant you do that, your level of anxiety is going to go up, because you know you're not an expert, they know you're not an expert, and now you're trying to play one, even if you're not on TV. You're a caring Christian person with an offer of something useful. Don't kill the conversation before it begins. So: relationship, listening, empathy, support. Then you move to some facts. And the facts might be — you know what they appear to be choosing to do, and you know what may or may not be healthy for them or their child.

Let's look at a couple more things that could derail you. Don't expect that you will please all the people all the time with what you say. You will not — don't expect it. That's okay. If our guideline for speaking the truth is to ensure that we please everyone all of the time, we just become some sort of rhetorical chameleons, and that doesn't help anybody. I'm thinking of some school board meetings — a neighbor of mine ran for alderman. He attended one school board meeting, and he's never been more hopping mad in his entire life, and that's why he ran for alderman. He said, "There are so many people sitting there and I know they know exactly what's right and what's wrong, and no one will say a stinking thing." And he says, "I'm out there in the wind all by myself." So sometimes we just remain silent, right, which makes it hard to share a message with any clarity.

I realize there are all kinds of multiple resources available for facilitating conversations with children, and Pastor Worm referred to some of those in his outline — you want to check those out. I'm going to say a couple things about conversations with our children, because they are important. I want you to understand how vital your one-to-one time with your child is. I don't care if your child's just a little itty-bitty, almost-person — it's okay to read to the pre-born, they'll get into grammar earlier perhaps. But more importantly, here's what I've counted: during the school year, when everyone is busy, everyone has a schedule, everyone has something to do — children under six, maximum, get two hours a day of parent time, and school gets more. Six-to-twelve-year-olds get one hour a day of uninterrupted parent time. And this isn't when you're multitasking — slicing the carrots, looking for the dog, picking the baby up, washing a window, putting something in the oven. Undivided time. And kids twelve to eighteen get about the same, about an hour a day. Precious time. Ensure that it does happen every day, and ensure that your children are eager to spend that time with you.

In the clinical setting, I would often set up incentive programs for children — B. F. Skinner is my friend, rewards do work — and I'd ask them, if you were able to do this all week, all of the — a nice way to recognize that and celebrate it. And I was thinking they might want a five-dollar bill, or — ninety percent of the time, kids under age twelve said, "it'd be great to bake something with my mom," or "it'd be great to just hang out with my dad in his truck," or "it would be great" — they wanted their parents. They want to hear from you. They want to be with you. They want to be loved by you. And your influence in sustaining those little relationships, as they grow up into adult relationships — the foundations are so vital, so crucial, so important.

I'll make a comment from Anthony Esolen. Many of you know him as a brilliant philosopher, English major, a commentator on our culture — Doxology had him out to Elm Grove Lutheran Church a couple of years ago. And over lunch he said, "You know, really I only have two criticisms of the public school." I thought, wow, I said, "What are they?" He said, "Well, one, they don't teach everything." "Well, tell me more about that." "And the second problem is: everything they do teach."

But let's say we're talking about some different people, some different people who are in a position of authority, different people who have a lot to do with your child's welfare. Begin with basic courtesy when possible. Let's say you're going to talk with a principal. There is an author named Miriam Grossman — she is a child psychiatrist who has worked with hundreds and hundreds of transgender kids and parents, and she makes the observation that it is almost essential for parents, if they do not know, to schedule an appointment with the school principal or the administrator — not to be confrontational, not to be a pain, but simply to communicate with the principal, especially if they have one or two children who may have different teachers in the school. Talk with the person responsible for the curriculum. Ask for an appointment, so you don't have the conversation on the way to the car after rehearsal for the Christmas program — don't ambush somebody. Ask for an appointment, let them know what it is you're thinking, what it is you'd like to know, and ultimately ask them some questions that are important. And the questions have a great deal to do with the notion of: what is your child learning? Ask to see your child's curriculum — the syllabus, or what the average teacher's planning notes look like.

Truth be told, sex education used to be a 45-minute lecture, either in sixth, seventh, or eighth grade, where boys were shuttled off to one room, girls were shuttled off to another room, there was great whispering, no one looked at anybody, it was Friday, thank heaven, so you went home for the weekend. That was in the dark ages, apparently, and ultimately they now appear to be the good old days. Now we have sexuality education, discussion of identity, gender, reproductive rights, discrimination, and children learn at age three, in pre-K, that they are sexual beings. How old were you when you figured that out? I'm guessing it was beyond pre-K. Children are taught that they're sexual beings from birth, and that the proper time for sexual activity is whenever they're ready, and they have rights to pleasure, and birth control, and abortion, and to decide if they want to be a boy or a girl. It's not surprising little children can become confused, and might actually leave believing that a boy could turn into a girl.

One mom called and said, "My daughter came home and she's afraid she could become a boy." I thought, wow, what happened? She said, "Well, at school they started talking about" — as Ryan Anderson mentioned — "the Genderbread Person." If you hear any whisper of that, mayday, mayday — we don't have time to talk about it, check it out. It helps little children explore their sexuality, and it's pure anathema. So kids can become confused, and kids are taught that all sexual exploration is normal, and they're encouraged to imagine what they might be. And that's not particularly healthy either.

Ask the admin or the principal: may parents attend the lessons when they're being taught, if you've identified when there will be a part of the curriculum that's part of the sex-ed book or film? Is there a link for parents to review videos of teaching that has been done on the subject in the past? Or ask for a link to a video of a classroom teacher who is live-streaming — but we don't want to live-stream that, why, why wouldn't you want everyone to know what their children are learning? Ask for children to be exempted from sex-ed curriculum offerings, at the parents' discretion — and this isn't being antagonistic, this is being an advocate for your child, this is protecting your child. You might want to ask how it is that the school responds to children who are gender dysphoric. You might want to ask if any children in the school are currently trans, how many there have been over the past years, and what grade levels those kids are in. You might want to ask if trans boys are allowed in the girls' locker rooms or vice versa, or if there's kitty litter for those who identify as cats — that's a clue, folks. Ask the school's policy about previewing the schedule for school assemblies, and the assembly programs. One parent was appalled to find out they were having a drag queen story hour and parade day assembly — well, that's what I'd love for my child, let's see, after all, it sure was colorful.

And very important — ask the administrator about parent notification, which is also vital. What's that? Notification about your child's behavior. Has your child said anything about discomfort with his sex? Has your child said anything about discomfort with his body? Would you, as a parent, be notified if a class discussing gender identity or sexual education is going to be offered, a special class? Would you be notified? Would you be notified about your child's classmate when he announces his transgender identity? Would other parents in the class be made aware of that — their little friend for the last six years is now going to become a little girl, what does that mean? And notification if a teacher is introducing new pronouns or new names for any children. And it is a conversation that is cordial, that is kind, that is respectful, and it becomes vital, particularly if you happen to be in a school district that's pretty edgy.

Anecdotal reports from all kinds of Christian parent groups surveyed have recommended: meet with your child's teacher, create the most positive relationship that you can. Attend and support the parent-teacher organization in the school, learn about it, and if you have an opportunity, serve in the membership of it. And to the extent it's possible, never miss a school board meeting — it's eye-opening. And to be totally honest with yourself, if situations crop up that are really difficult, the recommendations from parent groups and an awful lot of Christian authors has become very stark: remove them from the school. And if somebody wasn't raised when public schools were dangerous, that might strike them as very reactionary — and yet that may be the best form of advocacy you can have for your child, and the best form of witness you can make, to the parents of that class. Find a Lutheran day school, have a conversation with that administrator. I truly believe that our Christian day schools are going to become places of safety for the refugees from public schools, and our schools are equipped, and they are eager to share the love of God in Jesus Christ, and that's wonderful, and we welcome those parents and their children. So ask questions of those folks.

Other courageous conversations may ensue when you need to talk with a mental health care provider or physician, especially since you've learned there can be some very difficult guidelines under which they're operating, right, about affirming care. Before having conversations with counselors and doctors, we might want to be aware of something like: in June 2022, President Biden signed an executive order, and that executive order instructed his administration to end any non-affirming therapy — a ban on any therapy that would question a child's transition, that would slow a child's transition. An executive order. It is a dangerous world with lawsuits, and doctors, and psychologists, and social workers have licenses to protect, which could be lost in legal actions. Twenty-two states and the District of Columbia have outlawed anything but conversion — I mean, have outlawed conversion therapy. Outlawed — that's pretty serious stuff. And yet, we recognize that in the state of Wisconsin, on January 12, 2023, Wisconsin therapists, social workers, and counselors may now use conversion therapy, non-affirming therapy — that ban was lifted in Wisconsin. And I continue to be aware of how few therapists are actually aware of that. The media had a field day with it — the media had been saying, "Wisconsin ban will no longer protect children from the horrors of conversion therapy." Straight reporting — but I digress.

So with counselors and medical professionals, yeah, some courageous conversations will be required. Back to our friend Jordan Peterson once again, our Canadian clinical psychologist, who says of psychologists who are gender-affirming — here's his comment — "These professionals must be unaware of the literature on psychological contagion, or otherwise they are incompetent, they're greedy, they're manipulative, they're narcissistic, or downright sadistic." He tends not to spare words, right, but you get his drift.

Dr. Miriam Grossman surveyed hundreds of parents that she's consulted, and she said, if you are working with a counselor or beginning to work with a counselor, you may not even want to bring your child to the first visit. You may want to have the first visit with the counselor all by yourself, on which occasion you have some notes in hand so you don't forget what you wanted to ask, and cordially you ask essential questions and share essential information. "Doctor, we're happy for this appointment. We didn't want to bring in" — Boofy, or whatever the child's name is — "yet. We want to chat with you first. We want you to know we believe our family knows our daughter best. We love her dearly, we have always loved her, and we know the history of events that have been happening over the last three to four years that we think have contributed to some of the current turmoil and confusion. And at a minimum, before we bring our daughter in for care, we're going to ask that at a minimum you provide a thorough psychological evaluation that will help us derive a treatment plan, ensuring that she'll get the best possible care. We believe at this point she could require care for some anxiety and depression that predates a lot of her concerns about transgenderism, and I know there are all kinds of treatment options that are available for girls like this. And so I needed you to know at the outset, we will not be able to continue with you if you feel bound to use gender-affirming therapy. We'll continue to use her baptismal name at home and at school, and we'll continue to care for her in the wisest ways we can. Our family is a Lutheran Christian family, and we believe the Bible is God's inspired word, which sustains us and encourages us, and she's a female, and her sex was determined at conception, and that will not change, and we do have the ability to consent or withhold consent for treatment. We're not prepared to consent to puberty blockers. We're not prepared to consent to cross-hormone treatment. In fact, I understand Britain, Sweden, Norway, and indeed Finland have reversed their medical care policies and no longer allow gender-affirming therapy." About that part, okay. And you close with, "Please tell me if you'll be able to honor our family's faith and our perspective in caring for our child."

See this face? This is not an angry face. This is not an aggressive face. This is not the face of somebody who is a baseball-bat-wielding, sort of right-wing nutjob. This is a normal parent, in a normal conversation. You have the obligation, says Miriam Grossman and others, to have these conversations, right? Ultimately, the conversation will go well or it won't go well. But either way, hopefully you'll walk away from it with a sense of quiet satisfaction. Here's my litmus test for success with really difficult conversations, my litmus test looks like this: in this moment, over this last conversation, have I done the best I can as God gives me light? And if I have, thanks be to God — you celebrate that and you move on. I don't ask myself the question, has this conversation been exquisitely perfect in every detail — I'd be miserable and depressed all my life, which would be a bad thing.

After the conversation, especially if it's been difficult, don't be alone with it. We've already established that talking with somebody else is remarkably helpful and important. So be with somebody who can console you, who can pray with you, who can offer blessing and interpretation.

Finally, we can't simply agree to disagree. We can live with a spirit of thanksgiving, though, that God has given his church truth and reason and countless gifts. He's given each of us voices, with which we can speak unapologetically, hopefully speaking his truth in love.

I'm going to leave you with a final word of encouragement from an Australian pastor, Reverend Gunther Baikoffs — I'd not known him until I saw something he wrote in the last couple of weeks, and he says: ultimately, the wisdom for doing what you can, as God gives you light, is very simple. If you can reassure yourself that you've listened to the Word and not to the world, thanks be to God. If you can assure yourself that you have followed Christ and not the culture, thanks be to God. If you have loved and feared God, and not another person's opinion, thanks be to God. Be confident that he will equip you thoroughly for the doing of his will, providing you precisely what you require, one conversation at a time, for each of the conversations I've had.

Thanks for letting me visit with you.