Heavenly Power for Earthly Service: The Communal Nature and Purpose of the Charismata

Transcript (edited for readability).

Okay. My topic for this afternoon, which is the last in this presentation, is about the communal nature and purpose of the charismata, spiritual gifts. What are they? Their nature, what is their purpose? They have to do with empowerment for service. Now, I realize that what I'm doing here is summarizing a whole large amount of material, New Testament data, in a very, very quick and summary way. I can't possibly do justice to this huge topic, and very contentious topic. It's not easy to deal with. So please pardon my recklessness in trying to say everything in one and a half hours. And I hope that what I say will be of some use to you.

Now, if I read things rightly, one of the results of the Pentecostal charismatic movement is that the whole issue of spiritual gifts has been rediscovered and revived in the church. And so many pastors, not just Pentecostals or charismatics, are basically taught to think in terms of giftedness. Now, what is my giftedness? And the question arises, what is the gift that I have that I need to use to serve the Lord? Now, I maintain that that's back to front. The basic question that I need to ask as a pastor, as a Christian, is not what is my gift, but what is my vocation. And then everything falls in place.

As I said, one of the changes that I've seen in my own lifetime is that a question which had basically slipped off the back of the truck, which had been forgotten about, came from nowhere, and basically came right into the center of the life of the church. And that came as a result of the Pentecostal, and then especially the charismatic movement, which brought it right into the mainstream of Christendom. So people began to be interested in the issue of spiritual gifts. Not just spiritual gifts in an abstract sense, but very practically, what spiritual gifts does God give us? And how can we use those gifts in worship? And the focus initially was on what you could say, the supernatural, fairly spectacular gifts, like the speaking in tongues, prophecy, healing, exorcisms, that kind of thing. Okay? A spiritual gift. What they are, how they work, how they're to be used, and whether and to what extent they should be used regularly as part of the divine service.

Now, coming out of that interest in spiritual gifts and the realization that we have something very important here, an important aspect of New Testament teaching, not theoretically, but in practical terms, the question then arose, has arisen in the churches, you know, how can we encourage people to use their gifts, not just talents, natural talents, but their spiritual gifts, for the benefit of the church and for the benefit of the mission of the church? And so it's quite common now for our church leaders and pastors to have inventories of spiritual gifts, you know, lists of spiritual gifts, and that you need to then identify which spiritual gift you've had. Okay? Now, how many of you have had these kinds of inventories of gifts imposed on you, where you've had to decide which gift is yours? Hands up. See, it's even come into Missouri Synod. Okay? You're familiar with it.

Where does this come from? This is unique. At no time in the church has the church ever done this. This is a modern American invention, doing this. And yet it seemed to be the answer to all our problems in the church. And the question is, and this is very closely related to the issue of ministry and particularly mission, okay, we're not very good at doing the mission of the church. The reason we're not very good is because we don't recognize the giftedness, not just of the pastors, but of all people. If only we could get people to actually use their gifts in an appropriate way, then the mission of the church would thrive.

Now, as always, there is an element of truth in this. I was almost going to say a half truth, but that's being too generous, as far as I'm concerned. But there is an element of truth in this, and I would like to examine this issue of gifts, and I hope that by the end of this session, you'll see the element of truth in it.

Now, first of all, I'd like to do just some simple basic things. The basic issue is, what does the New Testament teach us about spiritual gifts? First of all, if you go to the New Testament, you find out that there's no one term for them. There's a whole range of terms. And this itself shows us that it's dangerous to try and pin them down. It's notoriously difficult, and right from earliest times, the church has found it very difficult to actually put its finger on what's going on here. And the variety of terminology shows how difficult it is to pin this down.

As I see it, there are six basic terms that are used in the New Testament. The most common is the term charism, charisma, and the plural charismata. Now, the word charisma comes from charis, grace, and it means a gift of grace. Something that's given as an absolute free gift to you by the grace of God. So charisma. And from that, you get the charismatic movement. Paul qualifies it, and uses the term of a spiritual charisma. Now, what does that mean? It's a gift of the Holy Spirit. Or the gift of the Holy Spirit. So he wants to bring a spiritual charisma to the Christians in Rome, which means either a gift from the Spirit or the gift of the Spirit.

More neutrally, you have the term spiritual things. Now, these are spiritual things, pneumatika. Paul talks about the manifestations of the Spirit, the fact that if people receive the Spirit, this shows itself concretely in many different ways. The Spirit doesn't produce uniformity. It doesn't clone people in one thing, but in fact, there's enormous variety of ways in which the work of the Holy Spirit is manifested in the lives of people. The writer to the Hebrews talks about apportionments by the Holy Spirit. So it's not that the Holy Spirit is apportioned in little bits and pieces to different people, but the Holy Spirit apportions his gifts differently, in different measures, to different people. So where all of us have the Holy Spirit, the thinking is, the Holy Spirit gives you something different to what he gives me. You get that basic thing? So different people receive different things from the Holy Spirit.

And most interestingly, both Paul and John talk about different spirits that are at work. So you have the Holy Spirit, but then the Holy Spirit gives different spirits. You have that in the book of Revelation. There are seven spirits for the seven churches in Asia Minor.

Secondly, in the New Testament, we have two extensive lists of spiritual gifts. We don't have time to read these passages now; if you want to, you can do it in your own time. Now, look how extensive this list is. This is just two listings. And they're not the same. The list that Paul gives when he writes to the Christians in Rome is different to the list that he gives when he writes to Christians in Corinth. This is what we find in those two lists, just those two lists.

First of all, prophecy, and prophets. Now, a prophet is a person who speaks the word of God directly by direct inspiration from God. Diaconal service, diaconia. Teaching, for teachers. Both teachers and teaching are spiritual gifts, charisma. Now comes the next one, which I love particularly, the gift of encouragement. The Barnabas gift. Generous giving. Oh, that's, we would like that, that gift of the Spirit would be manifest in our congregation. There is the gift of generous giving with no strings attached. Just generous giving. Diligent leadership. And there are two different words that I use there, which I can't go into, but you see, there's a big issue there, and we don't realize that in modern times, and you have this PLI, which is trying to bring secular models of church leadership, as if the leadership that we need is basically secular. Now, we can learn a lot from that. But true leadership within the church can only come as a result of the gift of the Holy Spirit. There is a kind of leadership which is appropriate to the church, and is given by the Holy Spirit to those who are called to be leaders in the church and administer the affairs of the church.

The next one is the gift of mercy, which is not just giving charity to people, but doing it in a cheerful way, with no strings attached. You see, one of the problems with giving charity is that it tends to demean and put down the people who live off charity. It's very humbling, it's very humiliating and shaming to receive charity. Well, what the charisma of mercy giving does, is instead of putting people down, you in fact honor people by giving them charity. Mercy.

Then there is the charism of a word of wisdom, which is sound, wise, practical guidance. Wisdom is practical knowledge. You all know how valuable it is when you're in a fix, you don't know what to do, you don't know which way to turn, and somebody comes and gives you some unexpected help, guidance as to which way to go. Something that you would not have thought about yourself. The gift of the word of wisdom, spoken into your concrete situation.

Then there's the word of knowledge, which is also spoken, a word that's spoken quite concretely in the given situation, which shows you what's going on here. And you say, you know, you look around, I don't know what's happening in my life, I don't know what Jesus is doing. You know, I'm just confused. And the word of knowledge is that word which comes, and you say, aha, now I see. It's not, now I get the dogmatics, or the theory, but now I see what's going on in my life. I see what I need to do, or I see what Jesus is doing. So the word of knowledge, so that you say, aha, now I see.

Then there is the gift of faith. Now, on the one hand, this is a common gift of the Holy Spirit to everybody who is a Christian. So everybody as a Christian has the gift of faith, but there's a particular kind of faith which is extraordinary. And all of you have met people who have this wonderful, wonderful gift that they just have, supreme confidence in Christ. And very often they are people who have every reason not to believe. They've had a tough time. And yet, despite that, despite all the difficulties they've suffered, their confidence in Christ just abounds. So this gift of supreme confidence, which is very often connected quite concretely with people who are praying people. So confidence in Christ, people who have very strong confidence in Christ, and they inspire other people by their faith, they inspire other people to be people of prayer, because they have such confidence in Christ, that's shown in their prayer.

Then there are, and notice the plural here, there are gifts of healing. Notice the plural, very important. Gifts of healing. Not just physical healing, but mental healing, psychological healing, spiritual healing, healing people who have been abused, healing people who have been sick, whatever the sickness is, healing people who are mentally sick, gifts of healing. Notice the plural. There's not just one kind of healing. People who have the gift to heal others.

Where am I? The gift of doing mighty works, mighty acts. This probably refers to exorcisms. The extraordinary gift that's given to some people, who can discern that Satan is at work, that some evil spirits are here at work, and know how to deal with the demons in this particular situation. You see, because you can't see Satan at work, you can't see the demons. You need to see what is invisible, what's humanly unseen: the gift of discerning the working of Satan and the demons and being able to deal with that concretely.

And closely allied with it, and these two are very often connected, the gift of discernment of spirits. Now, this is a very precious gift. And discernment of spirits doesn't just mean discernment of, you know, where the Holy Spirit is at work, where the evil spirit is at work, but also discerning what's going on in the spirits of people. That most rare gift of all that you have in the church is the ability that some people have to read other people spiritually. Have you ever come across that kind of person? The Germans use a wonderful term, which is called Menschenkenner. People who can read people, not just psychologically or physically, but read people spiritually. So, discernment of spirits means discernment: Satan is at work here, this is demonic. Also the positive side, this is the Holy Spirit at work here, not Satan. Now, you'll need this supremely in Africa. And you can pray for it. Discernment of spirits, because it's very, very confused in that context.

And then you get another paired group. There's the gift of tongues. Now, notice it's not just a tongue, but various kinds of tongues. There's not just one way of speaking in tongues, there's a whole variety of tongues. Now, I don't know how many of you have had experience of this, but it's quite obvious when you're confronted with it. Most obviously you can have people who speak in tongues, or sing in tongues, you can pray in tongues, you can praise in tongues, you can intercede in tongues. Right? It has many different facets to it. So there are various kinds of tongues. And then closely connected with that, there's the need to interpret tongues. Because tongues basically is not a public thing, it's for private devotional life. And if it's going to be a benefit to the church as a whole, to build up the church as a whole, it needs to be interpreted. Not just the meaning of the tongues, but the function of the tongues. I don't want this last session to be just on speaking in tongues, which is a big topic, and needs to be confronted and dealt with adequately, and I don't think we've always done this.

Next, the gift of apostleship is a charisma. It's a gift of grace, being an apostle. Lastly, helpful acts, helping out people. Now we think, very often in our folly in our society, that it's easy to help people. But what's the problem when you help people? Very often, you do it for the wrong reason, and it has unintended consequences; you do it for the wrong reason for yourself, and it puts people down rather than builds people up. So there is a charisma of offering help to people, the help that's appropriate, that's not full of ego, and that doesn't damage the person who is being helped. Big topic, but a lot of good stuff there. It's a very rare gift in the church. People who, quite naturally, instinctively, by the guidance of the Spirit, know how to offer a helping hand.

Now, besides these two lists in Romans and Corinthians, you have other listings or mentionings of charismata. By the way, one of them, the least mentioned and the least taught-about charismatic gift is the gift of chastity that Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians 7, verse 7. The gift of chastity, both in marriage and in celibacy. Chastity doesn't come naturally to fallen human beings. There's a charisma of chastity within marriage, there's a charisma of chastity in celibacy. Now, that's something that needs to be recovered. I have not yet found any Pentecostal manual that actually even mentions this. I wonder why. Or any little charismatic manual that mentions it. It may be there, and I may just not have seen it.

Right. Can I just pause there, on that big-picture stuff? Any questions? I've tried to be as clear as possible, but without great length. Yes, come to the mic, please. Guess who? Okay. Yes.

The gift of tongues, can this include speaking, you know, like, the natural ability to speak in foreign languages, or is it only referring to, you know, angelic tongues or something like this?

Yes. Beware of false antitheses. It can, and if you look at the data closely, it includes both of these. If you take the day of Pentecost, what was it? Speaking foreign languages. We each hear the mighty deeds, the praise of God, each in our own language. So it's that. And it can be at the other end of the scale, it can be angelic, the language of heaven, angelic things, but it can also be babble. And the problem is, which is it in which context? It can also be demonic. Did you hear that? Speaking in tongues is one of the symptoms of demon possession. Now, that's not putting down genuine use of tongues, but just, we need to practice discernment of spirits.

Okay, now, one of the surprising aspects of the teaching of spiritual gifts is the diversity of gifts. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of community, and is given equally to all people. Yet where the Holy Spirit is given, the Holy Spirit never clones people. In fact, the Holy Spirit, if you like to use a good American term, individualizes people, brings out their distinctive nature, their distinctive character, as people who are made in the image of God. And each one of us is made differently. You just look at the scientific data, and you see how differently we are made. God has made each of us differently, because we're all meant to reflect a different part of the image of God to other people. And corresponding to this diversity of humanity, you have the diversity of gifts.

Now, I want to speak about the diversity of gifts. The variety in the listings of the charismata that we have in Romans and Corinthians shows us that these lists are descriptive rather than prescriptive. Now, if you don't remember anything else, this is a key insight. So when Paul writes to the Romans, he gives this list, he describes the kind of spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit's given to Christians in Rome. He gives a different list in Corinth. And if Paul were visiting your congregation, he'd have a completely different list, because these lists are not prescriptive. So many Pentecostals will come and take this list and say, if you don't have all these, then something's wrong with you. Or worst of all, if you don't have any of these, then it means the Holy Spirit's not here. These are not prescriptive listings; they are descriptive listings that describe the way the Holy Spirit has worked in a particular location.

Secondly, there are various classifications of these lists in the New Testament. And the different classifications show, once again, how difficult it is to pin down the Holy Spirit. Remember, Jesus says, the Holy Spirit blows where he wills, you can hear where it comes from, where it goes, but you don't know, you can't see the Spirit. It's hard to pin down the operation of the Spirit. So what are the various classifications we find in the New Testament? First of all, Peter has a very simple two categories of gifts. He says there are the gifts of speech, gifts to speak, and then there are gifts of ministry, of service. So there's the gift of speaking, there are gifts of doing.

In Ephesians 4, Paul regards different people, leaders in the church, such as apostles, prophets, teachers, pastors, evangelists, as gifts that God gives to the church. And in this case, it's gifts that God gives to the church in Ephesus. So people are, in fact, gifts. That's lovely. Think of each one of you, each one of you is different, made differently. You have a different vocation. You are a gift, each of you, to your congregation, and a gift to the church as a whole.

Thirdly, in Romans 12 and 1 Corinthians 12, Paul uses the term charisma and the plural charismata to describe two different things. So for example, when he talks about the gift of prophecy, he's talking about the task that a prophet needs to do, which is to prophesy, as well as the ability to prophesy. So those two things go together. The charismata are always a task, a vocation, and the power, the ability to perform that spiritual vocation.

In 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy, Paul mentions the charisma that's been given to Timothy at his ordination by the laying on of hands, and that charisma is the power of the Holy Spirit that he needs to perform his ministry. Each one of you, when you were ordained, had hands laid on you and you were given the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit to empower you in your ministry. And each one of you received something different from the Spirit in that way. So in Timothy's case, we know quite clearly, I think we can see quite clearly, the words that were spoken, and the charisma that was given to him. Paul reminds him that he's had an ordination. He didn't receive the spirit of timidity, because he's a very shy, reserved guy. A shrinking violet, very timid. So he didn't receive the spirit of timidity, but the spirit of power, and love, and it's usually translated as self-control, but sound-mindedness. That's the charisma of the Spirit that he was given in his ordination. He's timid. So he's given power. Power to do what? Power to love. Power, sound-mindedness, power to think clearly, and feel clearly, to see things clearly, sound-mindedness.

Lastly, the New Testament distinguishes between gifts of office, you know, the office itself is a gift, say, of a pastor, and the gifts of abilities to perform a particular task. But they are very closely related. So while the New Testament does at times distinguish between gifts of office, such as the office of an apostle, and abilities, such as the power to speak effectively, the gift of speech, and to speak by the Spirit, to speak by the Holy Spirit to people, and energize people by speaking the word of God to them. So the power to speak effectively, it always presupposes that any gift that's given is given for the performance of a particular task within the congregation.

Now this is important. The basic question that you need to ask is, what is my vocation? What has God called me to do? And if God's called me to do something, he will give me the gifts that I need to do that task. And that not for my benefit, so I become a super pastor or super mum or super wife, but the power to perform the task I've been given to the church, within the congregation and for the benefit of the congregation. We come back to the communal nature of the Holy Spirit. Whatever is given is always given for the benefit of the community of the congregation.

Next, very importantly, the Holy Spirit never works by himself, but always works together with the Son and the Father. You know that from the creed, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, and is sent by the Son, proceeds from the Father and the Son. So, the Holy Spirit never works by himself, but always together with the Son and with the Father. So whenever you think about the charismata, the gifts of the Spirit, you need to think in Trinitarian terms. And the great passage for this, which we don't have time to read, is 1 Corinthians 12, verses 4 to 7. Since all spiritual gifts originate in the triune God, they need to be understood theologically within a Trinitarian framework, rather than just in connection with the Holy Spirit.

So, as gifts of grace, they are given by the Holy Spirit, who chooses to give a gift as he pleases. We don't determine what gift we receive. Who decides what gift we receive? That's the Holy Spirit. This gift, he says, no, that's not for you. What you need is this. He chooses it. We don't decide it. So he gives his gifts as he chooses in the church. And that means, since it comes from him, it's received in prayer, as manifestations of the Spirit's presence and work in the congregation and in your life. It's wrong for you, no, it's dangerous for you, to pray for a particular gift. You may receive it. And it may be the worst thing that you ever receive, because you don't know what you need. And always, the gifts that I want are the gifts that promote the great John Kleinig, that build up my ego, and you can do that very easily in the ministry. But that's not the kind of gift that I need. I need a gift that doesn't exalt me, but a gift that humbles me. That puts me on my knees, and I say, look, I don't know where to go. I can't do this anymore. Give me what I need, not what I want. That's the basic stance. The empty hands, faith, praying for the Holy Spirit, and not that I decide what I need, but the Holy Spirit decides what's best for me, and not just best for me, but best for my congregation and the people that I serve.

As ministries, the gifts of the Spirit are given for us to be ministers of the gospel, both ordained and unordained. As ministries, they depend on the ministry of Christ in the church, and involve people in working together with Jesus in many different ways. So Jesus has his work in a particular congregation. And everybody in the congregation is involved in working together with Jesus. But we're all like a body, Paul says. Different parts of the body have different tasks and they have different gifts to perform the different tasks. So the gifts that we have have to do with our work, our ministry, our service, together with Jesus, in the church.

Thirdly, the gifts are empowerments for us to do the work that God wants us to do. So with the gifts that empower us, God the Father energizes us to do different aspects of his work as members of the church. Paul uses the illustration of various parts of the body. The body works effectively if each part of the body does what it's meant to do. The eye does the seeing, the ear does the hearing, the mouth does the speaking, et cetera. The feet do the walking. They don't compete with each other, but they work together in doing one thing. You know, the remarkable part of our body is how on earth all these different parts are coordinated, that they don't go apart in a hundred different directions, the way your congregation quite often seems to go, but they all work together in doing one common thing. And so the gifts of the Spirit are empowerments for all the parts of the body to work properly in doing the work of God.

So all the charismata are given so that each congregation can work together with the triune God in its particular location. Now, just think it through. Your congregation is different to mine. It's in a different country, different culture, different needs, different history. And yet we think that the gifts that are given in my congregation have to be the same as in yours. That's stupid. I would expect, for your congregation to do its work, it needs the gifts that are needed there in that context, in that location. The gifts that are needed in Adelaide, South Australia are going to be different. The gifts that are going to be given in an Aboriginal congregation in Central Australia are different. Or we've had a brother from Madagascar. The gifts that are given to a Lutheran congregation in Madagascar are going to be different to a traditional Lutheran congregation in Minnesota.

What gifts are going to be given in Madagascar? Have you got to speak to Andrew at all? Okay? What are the gifts there that are not obviously manifested in your church? What? Exorcisms? Why? Because demon possession and demon oppression is so common there. But why isn't it in your congregation? Bibian? We don't see that problem. Well, it's not only that we don't see that problem, but we don't have the same problem. Why? Because you live in a Christian culture, a Christian society; the demons have been driven out over the space of a thousand years from that group of people. But watch out, they're coming back everywhere. Right? And so we can learn from him.

Likewise, the LCMS has got lots of pastors and teachers to do the teaching of the Word of God. The church in Madagascar, I don't know, I haven't had a chance to follow this through with Andrew, but what I've heard from others is that they have such a shortage of pastors. Now, if you've got a shortage of pastors and trained teachers, what gift of the Holy Spirit is going to be awakened in those people, so that those people are not left uninstructed? What gift? The gift of prophecy, and I'd expect it there. I do, because it's needed there. Can you see the way it works?

And in Africa, so you have a context where there's very little Western medicine. What gift would you expect to be common in the Lutheran churches in Africa? Gifts of healing. And not just physical healing, because there's no psychologist, there's no psychiatrist, but also mental healing, as well as spiritual healing.

Oh, can I give you another example from our own experience? Thailand, a Buddhist country. But underneath that Buddhist veneer, it's basically animist. And there's a common problem, and I can't explain why, and it's too complicated, of women being infertile in that society. By the way, it's a problem that, strangely, mysteriously, is beginning to emerge in our Western countries, women being infertile. And so they come to church, in order to be prayed for, so that they can fulfill their vocation as what? As mothers. And I've heard so many stories from women in Thailand who couldn't have babies at all. And once they become Christian, guess what happens? They fall pregnant. And they know that that's come from God and the Holy Spirit. So notice there are various kinds of healings. So in that case, it's the healing of infertility. God doesn't just operate in the spiritual domain, but ministers to people, heals people, quite concretely, where they are.

How's time going? We've got to finish it. I've still got about an hour, have I? Oh, is that two-thirty? Yeah, two-thirty? Okay, yes, I've got, sorry.

Now, one of the most important things when we deal with various kinds of spiritual gifts is that we aren't spiritually naive. We live in a society where anything that is spiritual is regarded as good. So if something's spiritual, it's good, and physical things are by and large bad. Now, is it true that everything that is spiritual is good? No. In fact, the greatest evil is not physical evil, even the worst kind of evil, like suicide, genocide, drug addiction, child molesting, abortion, you know, whatever you take is not the physical. What are the greatest evils? Spiritual evils. If you want to see the face of wickedness, you won't see it as clearly in the physical realm as in the spiritual realm.

And Satan, as you know, is the great deceiver. He is the liar. And he will always mimic the Holy Spirit in order to confuse people. Now, that's a very important insight, that whatever the Holy Spirit does, Satan will, if he can, try to mimic it. And this happens particularly in those gifts of the Spirit which are extraordinary, which seem to be supernatural, although that's not really a biblical term, supernatural, but I won't unpack that.

Now, there are three giftings that are ambiguous, and where Satan will try to mimic them because they are so powerful. The first one is the gift of healing. The Holy Spirit is the healing Spirit. The Holy Spirit brings healing. Now, normally the healing is the healing of the conscience. Now, that can lead then to the healing of the mind, emotions, imagination, all that stuff. And it can, when necessary, result in physical healing. So, for example, take the case of the lame man who's brought to Jesus, whose problem seems to be that he's lame, he can't walk. He's been crippled. What does Jesus do first of all? He doesn't heal him, he forgives him. And what's the result of his forgiveness? He can walk again. So there's the gift of healing, and particularly the gift of healing physically.

Now, Satan cannot heal mentally. He can't heal, as far as I can see. He can't heal spiritually, but what can he do? He can bring physical healing. So you can go to a faith healer. Let's say you've got a bad tennis elbow or something like that, or a crook back. You can go to a spirit healer, he does his mumbo jumbo with you, and what happens? You're physically healed. And many people say, okay, healing is good, therefore it comes from the Holy Spirit, comes from God. But in fact, it comes from the evil spirit. And the physical healing that that person has comes at the expense of something in his mind and his soul, but most of all, it comes at some spiritual cost. I don't have time to explore that fully, but just notice that. Okay, so if you get healing, you need to distinguish the spirits. Does this come from the Holy Spirit? Does it come from the evil spirit, or is it just some psychic thing that we don't know much about?

Secondly, prophecy, particularly prophecy which is foretelling future events. Now, Satan can prophesy just as the Holy Spirit can prophesy, and can predict events. But there's a difference between the two, and this is a very important criterion. Satan can see and foresee the bad things that are going to happen in the world, or in your life. Why? He knows the pattern. He doesn't know good. He knows evil, and he knows the way he works, and he knows the consequences of evil. So he can read the evil in you. He can read the evil in the world, and he works with evil, and so he can predict the evil things that are going to happen. But what can he not see and foresee? The good. He can't see what God's going to do. And he's always caught out because he assumes that God is as evil as he is. Like knows like. So he assumes that God is evil, and so he's always caught short. He can't predict what's going to happen. Just think of the crucifixion of Jesus. He thought he'd had Jesus. But what happened? What he thought was that he'd finally won the victory against God was, in fact, the deed that destroyed him and his pals.

And I've already mentioned, speaking in tongues can come from the Holy Spirit. Now, don't dismiss tongues out of hand. There's a genuine use of speaking in tongues. But let me warn you that speaking in tongues is not always from the Holy Spirit. It can be from the evil spirit. As I said before, it's one of the signs or evidences of demon possession. And it can be, it's not neutral, but it's a latent human ability. Just as sighing, groaning, we talk about sighing, groaning in the Spirit, as a latent human activity that the Holy Spirit can use, there's a latent human ability which is in this area of speaking in tongues. It can be a psychic thing. So people tell me that you can train yourself to speak in tongues. Or, once you've spoken in tongues, you can just switch it on at will. You don't have to pray for the Holy Spirit. You just switch it on. Now, is this from the Holy Spirit? Okay, you've got to test it. But in some cases, and in many cases, speaking in tongues is demonic.

So I've come across a couple of very interesting phenomena in my life. Actually, these two happened at the same party. I came across a tongue-speaking atheist. A tongue-speaking atheist. Or even, more oddly, a tongue-speaking Buddhist. Now, is that from the Holy Spirit? Well, I had no difficulty at all in discerning the Spirit there. I didn't attack them. I was very courteous, you might be pleased to know. But it was very easy to see what was going on there. So, some gifts can come from one of, say, two or three different sources. We need to distinguish and discern and test the spirits.

Now, what are the criteria for testing the spirits? Just very quickly, because I could have a whole session on this. And quite a large part of my ministry has been being called in to help people to distinguish the spirits, for some reason. I don't know why that's fallen on my lap, but that's just something that's happened. There are three basic criteria, if I can use them, for testing spirits. The first one is the confession of faith in Jesus, and the incarnation of Jesus, that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. Now, that's the full story of Jesus that you confess, that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary, that he lived a human life, that he died a human death, and that he rose physically from the dead. Now, anybody that comes from the dark side will find it difficult to confess some part of that, that Jesus rose physically from the dead. But that full confession of faith in Jesus. So, is Jesus the Christ? Is he the Son of God? So it's a confession of faith in Jesus and his incarnation. Basically, the content of the Apostles' Creed. Can a person confess and say, yes, I believe the Apostles' Creed?

Secondly, and this comes at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus warns against false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing. False prophets, false teachers, come disguised as angels of light, as true teachers, and Jesus warns and says, not everybody who says, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven. Who are the only people who will enter the kingdom of heaven? Those who do the will of my Father in heaven, not those who cast out demons or perform miracles, et cetera, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my Father in heaven. And then at the end of the Sermon on the Mount, it's quite clear what doing the will of God is, which is, Jesus says, about the person who does these words, who hears these words and does them, is like a man who builds his house on the rock. So what's the criterion here that Jesus gives us in the Sermon on the Mount? How do you test whether a person's a true prophet or a false prophet? Do they in fact do what Christ has given them to do? Do they do his words? So you use the words of Scripture and say, is what they teach and preach consistent with what we read in the New Testament? So that's the scriptural test. If it's not consistent with what Jesus has taught or what the New Testament teaches, you know that person's a false prophet.

Lastly, John gives, in addition to the confession of faith, another very interesting criterion. He says that the test of the spirit, whether people have the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit, is whether they listen to us. Now, who is the "us" there? It's us apostles. It's us, the apostolic community, and it's us, the teachers, the pastors, who teach the apostolic word. So that they listen to the apostles, the New Testament, that they listen to the teaching of the apostles, by pastors, leaders in the church, and they listen to the apostolic community. Now, if they reject the apostolic congregation, in that full sense, then you know that they come from the dark side rather than the Holy Spirit.

Now, in practical terms, this one has proved gold for me, to help pastors work through very difficult, conflicted situations, where it's not clear what's going on. Is this from the Holy Spirit? Is this just ego stuff? Is it from the dark side? Then in cases where things are very, very murky, we have the promise of the charisma of the discernment of spirits. Now, these gifts, particularly the supernatural gifts, are given not permanently, but on a need-to-minister basis. So we will have a situation where things are very murky spiritually. You don't know what's going on, and that's going to be a situation for you, Micah, in Africa. You can pray to God and he will awaken the spirit of discernment, not necessarily in you. Very often it's some unlikely person in the congregation or in the community who has the spirit of discernment, and is now able to see what's going on, what nobody else sees. So that's a very rare and precious gift, the spirit of discernment, being able to discern the spirits.

I'd just like to pause there, because that's the end of quite an important section. And instead of going through everything and then having questions, any questions or comments on what I've spoken so far? Yes?

I'm going back to 5B again, and I think I'm a little confused on that. Especially the part where, as gifts of grace, they are given by the Holy Spirit, and are received in prayer. Again, I keep hearing that, and what comes into my mind is, are we making prayer a means of grace? What exactly is that meaning of "received in prayer"?

Okay, let me unpack that. Received in prayer means received in faith. Okay? And that's not theoretical faith. Now, every Christian believes. Okay? But it's the exercise of faith. And not faith in self-confidence or, you know, my faith in the goodness of God generally, but my faith is always based on what? The commands and promises of Christ. And as my faith is resting on the word of God, then prayer which claims and receives what is promised and commanded in his words. It's both commanded and promised. So faith which receives what God has commanded, faith which receives what God has promised. And that is given to us in prayer.

Now, I don't know whether you've ever noticed that almost all the places where Jesus commends people for their faith have one thing in common. Just read the gospel through and look at the same thing, where does Jesus say your faith has saved you, or, not in Israel have I seen faith like this, or, great is your faith? Gentiles. Well, this is when it is, not, in Israel have I seen faith, but great is your faith is the faith of Gentiles. But what have these Gentiles done? They have come to Jesus in prayer, not for themselves, but for other people. Now, they were a faith, somebody who has no right to claim anything from God, but claims God's grace, not for themselves, but for other people. Jesus said, great is your faith, or, not in Israel have I ever seen faith like this. That's the great faith. What about the normal thing? Your faith has saved you. It's where people have come in prayer to Jesus. Because prayer is an exercise of faith in Jesus, in his word, in his commands.

So in practical terms, and I was thinking practically, not dogmatically, I know my dogmatics very well, and I know the correct teaching, and I don't disagree with it. In fact, I teach it, and I make it very clear. But in practical terms, faith, the exercise of faith, is seen most clearly in prayer. Do you think that's true? The exercise of faith is most vividly declared in prayer. And this explains something that I discovered in my ministry, and I wish somebody had told me this when I was in seminary or a young pastor. What is the surest sign, practically speaking, pastorally, that a person has lost faith in Christ? They have stopped praying. Now, that's fairly straightforward, but the opposite is true. Let's say you're ministering to a person who is an unbeliever and you are bringing them to Christ. What's the turning point? What's the mark which shows before and after? What do they do? They pray for the first time. Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. And that's not just in confessing about Jesus, but Jesus, you are my Lord. Or, Jesus, help me. They begin to pray. The Holy Spirit creates faith in them, and because they have faith, they begin to do something that they've never done before. They may have prayed before, but what have they not done? They haven't prayed to Jesus as their Lord. They haven't confessed Jesus as their Lord. They haven't sought help, salvation, from Jesus. They may pray to some generic God, but not Jesus. So praying and believing track very closely together practically. We need to distinguish between them, but in practical terms, they track each other all over the place.

Okay, the next part is not so difficult, and I think is fairly straightforward, following from what we've already done. How are the charismata given? How are they bestowed? Now, there's one teaching which I know is very common in Orthodox Lutheranism, which I disagree with, but which I respect. And it has a certain weight. And that is that certain charismata, not all of them, but certain charismata, were given for the apostolic age, but then they ceased. So there are some Lutheran dogmaticians who said, for example, speaking in tongues was just for the apostolic age, but once the church was planted, once you have the Scriptures, then people stop speaking in tongues, likewise prophecy, likewise healing. And some even don't go as far as to say, likewise, I think, and so on. Now, I don't think that that's terribly likely, though it's not impossible. Yeah, there are certain ages where certain gifts are manifested and they cease, they are manifested when they are necessary. And I tried to illustrate that by the difference between what happens in a congregation in Minnesota and in Madagascar. Okay? Now, I believe that all the gifts of the Spirit, which were manifested in the apostolic age, are available to us here and now, and will be available in the future, and probably new gifts. Who knows what God has in store, particularly in the messy situation that we've had?

Take, for example, the very vexing problem of the new addictions that we have, and the new forms of mental sickness, which come from the way we've reconfigured our society. Now, we've never had television before. We've never had electronic media before. We've never had Facebook before. We've never had ready access to hallucinogenic drugs before. We never had access to the kind of pornography we have now. There's always been pornography, but we've never had access to the kind of pornography that we have now. And these are very powerful things, they can be used, all of these are things that are God's creation, they can be used for good, but they can be used for evil. Who knows what gifts of the Spirit God will manifest and give to his church in dealing, say, with the issue of pornography? Just to take one case in point. I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised if the Holy Spirit surprises me in this.

Now, speaking generally, okay, the giving of the charismata. Number one, the Holy Spirit gives his charismata, his gifts of grace, to the church today, where and when he wills. Okay, the church doesn't decide, we don't decide, the Spirit decides what gifts we need. Secondly, they are never possessed. You can't claim them. You have this theology, name-it-and-claim-it theology. Have you come across it? You've got to name it and claim it, and then it's yours. There's no name-it-and-claim-it theology when it comes to gifts of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit decides what gift. It's never possessed and it's always received as a gracious gift from God in faith. And that means the exercise of prayer. We don't pray for a particular gift necessarily, but we pray for the gift of the Holy Spirit and for the Holy Spirit to decide what gift or charisma we need.

Now, the gifts of grace, the charismata, vary from person to person, with their different vocations. So take it quite simply. Let's say I'm a deaconess, if I were, ridiculously; I'd expect to have a different spiritual gift to being a pastor or the president of the LCMS. Why? Because I have a different vocation. The Holy Spirit gives those gifts that are needed in our vocation. So it varies from person to person with different vocations, but also it varies with location. So from place to place, with different stations. So, the giftings that will be given to my cup, and the people he deals with, will be different to the giftings that he's experienced in his American congregations.

Next, while most of the charismata that are given in different ways to people are characterized by diversity, there are three greater gifts, Paul says, which are given to all Christians. What are the most excellent charismata that you can pray for, that you can name and claim, to use that terrible terminology? What are they? Faith and hope and love. And as you know, Paul says, the greatest of these is not faith, but love. And he says, mark that love is the mark of every charismatic. So to have any charisma, without having the gift of love, is useless and worthless. All charismata are under the umbrella of faith and hope and love, which we all have, and are subordinate to the great gift of love. Any charismata that are exercised without love are diabolic and destructive. I repeat that again. Any charismata that are exercised without love, and I'd say without faith and hope, are diabolic and destructive.

Now, all baptized Christians. Now, here comes the blank assertion. Every single Christian is a charismatic. So if somebody asks you, are you a charismatic? Yes. Because every Christian has some gift of the Holy Spirit. All baptized believers are charismatics who depend totally on God's grace for their vocation, and need to pray constantly for empowerment by the Holy Spirit and his gifts of grace, in order to perform the task that God gives them to do.

So let's say I'm a young mother, and I'm a young Christian mother, and I've been a professional. Okay? You'll be very, very competent, top of your profession. Have you seen this happen? These very competent superwomen become mums and what happens? They fall apart. They thought that being a mother would be a piece of cake compared to running a corporation, or being a doctor, or a psychiatrist or something, but what did they discover? That particularly not just to be a mother, but to be a good wife at the same time, and to be a Christian mother, is an exercise in impossibility. And you soon reach rock bottom. The battery's empty. You've seen that happen? Maybe in your own marriage. Maybe you've experienced it yourself. You've seen it happen to the women in your congregation. The gifts of the Spirit are given, as they are needed, in order to fulfill the work that God calls us to do in our station by vocation. And it doesn't just mean, you know, being a pastor, but it can be something as simple as being a Christian mum or Christian dad.

Second last. Now, if you haven't caught it, what I've been emphasizing is the corporate nature, the communal nature of the Holy Spirit and all the gifts of the Spirit. It's interesting that the discussion of spiritual gifts in the New Testament is often coupled with assertions about the corporate nature of our Christian life, the corporate nature. So, the gifting of the Spirit is coupled in Romans 12 with some warning against the danger of self-promotion by gifted people. And that's obvious. I mean, let's say, for example, I've seen this happen, somebody speaks in tongues, and everybody admires them. And they regard themselves as being better than other people, and other people look up to it and reinforce it. So the danger of using the gift that you have for self-promotion, or somebody receives a prophetic word, and they think that they are superior to their pastor. Right? So you use your gift to promote yourself and your own ego in a way that's inappropriate. And then there's a second danger, that you boast and brag about your gifts, which leads then to rivalry, and envy, and disunity in the body of Christ.

Now, what is the purpose of every single gift that we receive? Not first to compete with each other, not for us to brag and show off, and say, the great John Kleinig, look at this super spiritual person. Any spiritual gift that I've been given is given for the benefit of the whole body. And if it's not used for the benefit of the body, guess what the Holy Spirit's going to do? He'll pull it back. Why? To protect the community, and to protect the precious souls of people within the community. Now, you can see that with other people, but he does that with us as pastors too. When we use the gifts that he's given us to promote ourselves and put others down, not to build up others, then he pulls them back, not permanently, but until he's humbled us and put us in the place where we can exercise them appropriately.

Most important of all, if you like, summing the whole thing up, all the charismata are given for the common good of any given congregation, the common good, that's what Paul says. They're given for the common good of every congregation. And I want to pick that notion up. Now, what does Paul mean by the common good of the congregation? Then I come to the purpose of the charismata. Now, whether it is the charisma of chastity or encouragement, or speaking in tongues, or whatever, no matter what:

Number one, God uses the charismata to distribute, and this is Peter's picture, his many-colored, his multicolored grace. The grace of God is not like light that comes only in one color, but is like a rainbow that comes in many colors, or it's like a prism that's reflected in many colors. So, if you want to see the colorful nature of God's working in people, to see your congregation, not in black and white, but to see it in color, you need to see the charismata that are being manifested within the congregation. So, God uses the charismata to distribute his multicolored, manifold grace.

Secondly, even more importantly than that, he gives the charismata, not in order to build up a person as a holy temple, that's true partly, but to build up the congregation as the temple of the Holy Spirit. The word "edification" means temple-building. So the purpose of the charismata is temple-building, edification, to edify the congregation. And that doesn't mean to make them feel good about themselves. But it means to build them up as the holy temple of the Holy Spirit. There's only one charisma that is given for us to edify ourselves, to build ourselves up, our bodies up, as the temple of the Holy Spirit. Or at least there may be others that are this, but there's only one where it's explicitly taught that it is for self-edification, rather than congregational edification. Do you know what that is? Here, somebody said, what? Tongues. And that means that basically tongues is a private matter. It's for you, and for the Holy Spirit, to build up a person as a temple of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, there's much that could be said about that.

Thirdly, all the gifts of the Spirit, all the gifts of grace, are given for people to encourage each other. They're not to compete or to rival each other, but to encourage each other, and God knows we need that. Now, most of you probably come here at least with some measure of discouragement. And it's hard not to be discouraged in the church because we're not used to hard times. And you think that the church is shipwrecking in North America. Mind you, looking from outside, it still seems to be in good shape, but you don't see it that way. The evil spirit wants to discourage you and your congregation. There's no future for you. Okay? The purpose of the manifestation of the spiritual gifts is to encourage, not just you personally, but to encourage the whole congregation, the whole community.

Next, and second last, and the last two are very closely connected. The charismata are given in order to manifest the glory of God the Father, which is the presence of God the Father, in your congregation, so that your congregation will do doxology, glorify God the Father, through Jesus Christ, in the church. So where does the glory go for miracles, for extraordinary manifestations of the Spirit? Not to the person who speaks in tongues, or heals, or prophesies, or leads. The glory goes to? God the Father. And if the glory doesn't go there, you know something's going wrong. If somebody uses a gift, whatever that gift is, however much, to glorify themselves, rather than glorify God, you know that's not from the Holy Spirit.

Lastly, and closely connected with that, since all the gifts of the Spirit, the charismata, are gifts of grace, and if they are gifts of grace, they should result in, not just individual Eucharist, but in congregational and synodical Eucharist, Thanksgiving. So, the purpose of the bestowal of the charismata is to glorify God, not human beings, in the congregation and out in the world, and to turn every single congregation in the LCMS, and then the whole church, into Eucharistic, Thanksgiving congregations. So remember my little criterion when I visit congregations: the mark of spiritual health is what? Singing. And the way they sing: are people's hearts filled with gratitude and thanksgiving for the grace of God? If that's the case, then they've heard the gospel. And that's all that I'm concerned about. They've heard the gospel. It's real to them. The gospel is alive in their lives.

Now, then, quite practically speaking, drawing the whole teaching of the charismata together to a very practical end in view, what does this mean for me? Number one, it means that I need to get priorities right. The first question is my faith. Do I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? Do I believe in God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? Do I believe in the word of God? His commands, his promises. That's the number one question. The second question is, if I believe, then what is my vocation in life? My vocation, and going with vocation, what is my station? Where has God placed me? And what does God call me to do, not in the future, but right here and now? And this is very difficult for me. Oh, you know, I'm retired. What's my vocation now that I no longer have a local call? I'm still a pastor. I'm still a pastor of the LCA. A member of the congregation, but I'm not the pastor of the congregation, I'm a member. What is my vocation now as a retired seminary lecturer, professor? What is my vocation as a 72-year-old man? What is my location, in those particular stations? Okay, it's not obvious, can you see? That's the next question. What is my vocation where God is placing me now? It was easier a little while back when I was still teaching in the seminary, and I was, you know, on various boards and commissions of the church, but I have no official position anymore.

Lastly, once that's the case, then the question is, then I can pray, if I know what my vocation is, then I can pray to God the Father, to give me whatever I need now to fulfill my vocation in my station. What do I need now as a husband, now that I'm retired? It's different when you're working and your wife's working. What do I need now as a retired pastor, who gets invited to speak in places like this? What do I need as an ex-seminary lecturer who gets phone calls from pastors? What do I need to, as I'm writing a commentary on Hebrews? What do I need now that my children have grown up? What do I need now that I'm a grandfather with nine grandchildren? Do you see the different waves? What I can be sure of is that whatever God calls me to do, God won't leave me in the lurch. He will give me those gifts that I need to fulfill my vocation in my station.

Can I give perhaps an example of this, quite confidently, in the hardest place at all? My father was a very pious man, a very devoted man, a godly man. When he came to the end of his life, basically, he couldn't do anything very much at all. He had a stroke, he was very infirm, he was confined to bed. And he suffered severe depression, because of it, the devil threw everything, all the bad things he'd ever done, and all the bad things I had ever done to him, back in his face. And he asked the question, John, he said, John, why doesn't the Lord take me? I've got nothing left to do anymore for him. I'm a burden. I'm a burden to Mum. I'm a burden to you. Why am I still here? What was his vocation? Bear the cross and pray for me and others. And that was the charisma that he was given, it was the charisma of endurance. Not passive endurance, but active endurance, embracing it, saying, yes, this is what I'm called to do. I'm to bear my cross, not unwillingly, but willingly, bear the cross, and the one thing that I can do is the most important thing of all, I can still pray for you. That was what the Spirit brought him to at the end of his life.

Now, if that's true, then I need to pray for, not what I think I need to fulfill my vocation, but what God sees that I need to fulfill my vocation. Say, for example, I've had this trip over here to North America. Now, what is it that I need? Now, by the prayer, that I can tell, two things. Number one, not to suffer from jet lag. Now, that's reasonable, isn't it? Number two, not to get sick. Guess what's happened? I've had bad jet lag. And I haven't been able to sleep, normally, for nearly two weeks. And last week I had a very bad cold. What's going on? And you see, it's not easy. It's not what I think I need, this, but deep down, this is. No, Johnny, you need something a little bit different to be able to present to people.

Lastly, God never equips us with charismata in advance. But he gives provision to us on a need-to-minister basis. Now, this is something I've learned from bitter experience. He doesn't give us the gifts that we need in advance. So he doesn't, you know, sort of fill up, give things at seminary or ordination, and then you've got all that you need for the rest of your ministry. It doesn't fill you up at the beginning, you know, when you have a new call, beginning at a congregation, and then it's there for the rest of your ministry. He gives it to you and me quite concretely in our circumstances, on a need-to-minister basis. When we're called to do something, you can confidently believe and expect and receive whatever you need to minister in those circumstances. Now, I've found that supremely so in ministering to people who are under attack by Satan and the demons. Whenever you go into that situation, you come impotent, blind. You haven't a clue of what you need and what to do. But one thing you can be sure of: wherever God calls you to engage with saving people from the powers of darkness, he will give you whatever you need to minister to that person in that situation. Expertise doesn't count. Knowledge doesn't count. It's given to you in faith and you can ask for it and claim it in prayer. Now, that applies not just to these extraordinary circumstances, but to all circumstances of ministry in every single day of our vocation in life. So he provides these things on a need-to-minister basis. Thank you.

But we still have time for the question. I'll rush this a bit. I'm sorry, but I wanted, we've got ten minutes, haven't we? Okay. Now, not just on this, but anything from the last two days.

Dr. Kleinig, thank you very much for your clarity on this, as there is much confusion surrounding us as well. In part, I wanted to go back to your speaking on Article Five of the Augsburg Confession. And you had the positive and not the antithesis of, we condemn the Anabaptists and those who otherwise speak that you could receive the Holy Spirit apart from the external word, which you had mentioned Luther earlier today on that, through your own preparation and good works. And as I mentioned to you today, in parallel to that, looking around the room at some of the younger faces here, very few of us lived through the '70s, probably a good thing.

Yes. You didn't miss out on anything. I was there.

And yet our church was facing a crisis which is very rarely spoken of, regarding the charismatic movement within Missouri. The Renewal in Missouri, of which there are still vestiges in our congregations. Trying to put those two pieces together for me personally and perhaps others, when we face this in our congregation, of those who would say, yes, Christ comes to us in the word and sacrament, and yes, he comes to me through the charismata, individually on my own or through other gifts that I have received. Perhaps I'm the one that's confused on this, and maybe I haven't even made it clear in my understanding, if there's a way to.

First thing I'd like to make quite clear is that I wasn't here. And I would appreciate that, Dexter. We had something similar, but I'm well aware that what happened in your church was different to what was happening elsewhere. I have a bit of an inkling of what went on. And I think there were problems on both sides. And both sides refused to see what was scriptural and holy and right in each other's positions. Now, it would take far too long for me to unpack that. But what I've tried to do these whole two days is to do justice to both sides. In case you don't realize it, this is what I've been trying to say: what can we learn from the charismatic movement that's valuable? But also at the same time I've been critiquing it. But genuinely, I hope. I haven't lambasted it. And I've done both of those scripturally and confessionally.

Now, I'm aware of this, and I know that's part of the context, and this is my particular stance and it's my offering to you in your church. Sometimes we can, and it so often happens in the church, that we engage in what Paul calls a logomachia, which means the war of words. We fight over terminology, words; we don't go behind what people mean with that statement, but we fight over our formulations. So because somebody doesn't formulate their theology in the same way as I do, therefore they are false teaching, therefore I need to be suspicious of them. One of the things that should have been done and could have been done more carefully, I believe, is that both sides could have sat down and just cleared the air. What happened with the Formula of Concord? See, there was a dispute and it was very confusing. The first thing they did was just to sit down together and say, well, we had agreement about these things, but what are the points at issue? And I don't think that ever emerged clearly in that context.

And I think the reason it didn't emerge in your synod was because you were still reeling from the whole Seminex business, and that was a different front. So you had that front, and that was still sorting itself out. And you needed to assert certain truths about Scripture in that context. But the danger was to carry that over and to assume that the side issue being brought by the charismatic movement was the same issue you were being confronted with. So what could have been more helpful is that people would have sat down and actually worked out: when do we agree, when do we disagree, then why do we disagree, and how do we disagree? And then going from there to, what has the church always taught? Not just us, and not just the LCMS, because we've faced issues that you've never faced as another church, and you had few resources to deal with this in your tradition. But there were other resources available in our broader Lutheran tradition, which could have helped you. So, for example, a very important Lutheran theologian was known, a man by the name of Oosterzee, who basically dealt with these issues in the middle of the 1800s, and wrote with great clarity in the Sermon on the Mount. He wasn't known, they couldn't use those resources.

Now, just to take the particular issue that you raised, okay, does God come to us through his word? Does God give his Spirit to us, give his grace to us, through his word, or through the charismata? That's a false antithesis, and that's worded the wrong way. God comes to us with his Spirit and delivers his Spirit through physical means, word, sacrament, but he comes, the Spirit comes, not through charismata, but with charismata. With his gifts. With his grace. He doesn't come through it, but with it. Sometimes people quite carelessly use that kind of language, but it could have been clarified quite simply.

Just a little aside, in the time that maybe, you know, I've been contacted by a charismatic pastor, and there's more in the charismatic mood. And he said, it's so great that somebody's speaking up on this, and they hope that it will clear the air and sort things out. And he used language and terminology there that I would be uneasy about. But once I wrote to him and said, well, this is the way I said it, if we said, that's what I meant, that's all you're about, that's what I meant. I sent them a copy of this, you know, as well as some other stuff that I've done. And he said, yeah, I agree with that. So, just on that issue. Okay.

The important thing that needs to be affirmed on both sides of that issue, and look, it's got a proper forgiveness once it's sorted out: God the Father gives us his Spirit, through his Son, by means of his word, not word understood too narrowly, but his word which is written, his word which is spoken, his word which is an act, and his word which is prayed, his word which is used in praise, his word which is used in the church, however it's used. So he gives the Holy Spirit through the word, and we receive the Holy Spirit through the word by means of faith, and that means prayer. And somebody says, here's another issue that was stated there, is prayer a means of grace or not? No, pastor. The question is, what means of grace do we exercise in prayer? So the Holy Spirit's given by those means, and he comes and gives us, not individually, but he gives the church, all the gifts that are named, for every particular congregation in its location, and for the church as a whole to do its work in all.

What I figure, and this is also a judgment against my own church as well as your issue, that your church may have been depriving itself of something by the hard line that some parts of it took against the Lutheran renewal. Now, that's just my feeling. I don't know enough to pass that judgment. I know it was the case in my church, and so with some of the charismatics. And that means that the Pentecostal problem hasn't gone away. Now, that's a long, rambling answer. Thank you.

That's clarified. I've been thinking again of returning it to the Trinitarian foundation.

Yes. It's easy to focus only on another person's try. And that's a good ground rule: is it scriptural or not? Is it evangelical or not? Now, is it scriptural? Is it Christological, evangelical? Is it Trinitarian? And then the other criterion is pastoral. Does it actually build up? That's the application. And in this application, the basic pastoral question is, how does it minister to the conscience? Because there's a teaching of charismata which basically burns consciences. I hope you can see that. On the other hand, if the charisma is taught rightly, it unburdens those consciences. Okay, and that's a good little ground rule. Does this teaching and practice unburden consciences or burden consciences?

Well, somebody else said, did you? Well, I did, but we're at time to quit. I don't want to make anybody upset with me for asking a question. Just ask your question, so that people hear it. Sometimes the questions are more important. Now, in most cases, questions are more important than the answers.

I heard you say that God certainly will, the Holy Spirit will gift us for what he's called us to do, but is it possible that he gives us gifts in order for us to determine our vocation? I have a daughter who's very compassionate, who has a gift of mercy. She went into nursing. And we saw that in her. My other daughter started out in something that I was like, I wonder why she's going into this as a profession. And then all of a sudden she called and said, yeah, it's not really matching up with who I am.

Now, the short answer to that: yes, of course. Thank you.